Pagoclone

[StutteringSteve]

Does anyone know if this drug really works. Thinking about trying it.

Thanks.

[speedlimit]

Wishful thinking. If this drug were actually available and you could get some, I'm sure myself and most of the people on this board with be making you offers to buy some. I'm guessing it will be several years before we hear anything promising. A market of 3 million? people just isn't profitable enough to rush through the FDA testing and other red tape, especially in the current economy.

I'll make a post of my current supplement remedy. Check it out. If you can get scripts, lorazepam works pretty well.

[speedlimit]

That's some wishful thinking. If pagoclone were an approved drug and/or you were able to get your hands on some, I'm sure myself and many other people on this board would bombard you with offers to buy some. I don't expect to hear any promising news for several years.

Let's be honest here. A drug with a limited market (~3 million in the US) isn't going to be able to fly though trials and FDA approval compared to something like viagra that is so popular you get dozens of spam messages a day about it. Especially because in the current economic situation may slow things further.

If you can get some 'scripts, lorazepam works well but you will develop tolerance as it is an addictive controlled substance.

I'll make a post on a good supplement remedy. Check it out

[TenaciousD]

Does anyone know if this drug really works. Thinking about trying it.

Thanks.

Hello steve.............. There is deffinately a big buzz going around about pagoclone....... Ive never tried it myself but Ive got a friend who was part either the 1st or 2nd fda trials ( I forget which one) it didn't seem to help him much......but then again maybe his body needed more of it to have an effect. He's also tried olanzapine and it did help some but he gained like 30 lbs...........

[urbanmermaid]

this is like the only reason i read this forum... having a drug especially for stuttering is something very interesting.

ive read it belongs to a total new class of drugs.. isnt a benzodiazepine...
god knows when it will be released and how much it will cost, because from what i gather there will be only one company manufacturing it at the beginning but hey it will be something cool to try :P

Lately ive become so interested in how serotonin and dopamine work in the brain that i might study a second major in neurology LOL ;))

[peebee]

i dont think pagoclones target market is primarily stutterers. Wasn't it initially an anti-anxiety drug? I may be completely wrong here :) but either way it won't be on the shelves for at least a few years...

[Violet]

ooo omg! six months ago i was seeing a psychologist and she was talking about this random drug (i'm not sure if it was this one or not) and gave me some papers about it... i'll see if i can find the sheets. *searches for papers*

... ah ha! well according to these papers, the scientists say that in adults who stutter they have excessive dopamine levels in the "striatal" regions of the brain, and think that by reducing the levels it may help stuttering..

haha and as a side note, i read this article/blog thingy in the newspaper last tuesday and it said:
"After , a man's dopamine levels drop dramatically, making the woman he's just bonked less attractive, less desirable and with a less of a chance that he's going to call her in the morning.
A woman, on the other hand, experiences the opposite effect. The increased oestrogen increases the effects of oxytocin in her brain, leading her to believe she's more in love and attached to the man she just slept with than before she did the do."
http://blogs.smh.com.au/lifestyle/asksam/archives/2008/12/bedroom_responses_his_vs_hers.html

so guys.. do you find you stutter less after you sleep with someone?

[TenaciousD]

ooo omg! six months ago i was seeing a psychologist and she was talking about this random drug (i'm not sure if it was this one or not) and gave me some papers about it... i'll see if i can find the sheets. *searches for papers*

... ah ha! well according to these papers, the scientists say that in adults who stutter they have excessive dopamine levels in the "striatal" regions of the brain, and think that by reducing the levels it may help stuttering..

haha and as a side note, i read this article/blog thingy in the newspaper last tuesday and it said:
"After , a man's dopamine levels drop dramatically, making the woman he's just bonked less attractive, less desirable and with a less of a chance that he's going to call her in the morning.
A woman, on the other hand, experiences the opposite effect. The increased oestrogen increases the effects of oxytocin in her brain, leading her to believe she's more in love and attached to the man she just slept with than before she did the do."
http://blogs.smh.com.au/lifestyle/asksam/archives/2008/12/bedroom_responses_his_vs_hers.html

so guys.. do you find you stutter less after you sleep with someone?

lol...........interesting information. Maybe my jk inducing fluency thread I started a little while back, actually has some science behind why it could help....... Maybe for males it still could be the answer:D

[Happy stutter23]

"After , a man's dopamine levels drop dramatically, making the woman he's just bonked less attractive, less desirable and with a less of a chance that he's going to call her in the morning."-----yep its true! i thaught that i was the only person thinking like that wooohooo:D

[sst]

I think I'm also the opposite of most guys. Whenever I sleep with someone I tend to get attached. The results aren't always good. :)

[speedlimit]

Hi all,

So i've been meaning to post on this board for a while but never got around to it and it's not like the website makes it easy to do so. Anyway I thought I should share some insight from my knowledge as a biochemist and my personal stuttering experience.

As we hear talk about Pagoclone and hope/demand for it, I researched the mechanism behind it. Basically like any anti-anxiety drug or alcohol to some extent, it increased your brain's receptivity to GABA, a inhibitory neurotransmitter. When you take a xanax, valium, lorazapam or drink etc, you're brain can uptake more and it helps control the firings (mis-firings the case of stutters) of the neurons in the brain. If any of you have noticed you are a bit more relaxed and fluent when on drugs, this is why.

What makes Pagoclone promising is it is specially formulated to work on GABA receptors and is a different class of drug compared to typical anxiety meds.

While not normally sold in stores, GABA, usually sold in a powder or capsuels, is available online. I buy mine from luckyvitamin.com. I have been taking either 5-7 750mg capsuels or 2 teaspoons of powder mixed into water or juice. It tends to take about 30 minutes to be absorbed and to feel a calming effect and sometimes helps when taken with a small amount of food.

I strongly reccomend you take a b-6 or b-complex vitamin along side it to help it absorb. Glutamine is also a precursor and helps it's effect but does not have a huge difference.

So that said. I have been taking my 5-7 pill or 2 teaspoon dose for about a year now and it has made a TON of difference. I've had the best effect taking a few doses throughout the day and a larger dose in the evening.

I wouldn't post here If I didn't believe this would totally help people as it did with me. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE someone give this a shot and tell me how it goes!!!! Spread the word too if anyone is going to NSA meeting and such. This is by no means a cure but by far the best treatment I have found.

-Nick

[speedlimit]

Hi all,

So i've been meaning to post on this board for a while but never got around to it and it's not like the website makes it easy to do so. Anyway I thought I should share some insight from my knowledge as a biochemist and my personal stuttering experience.

As we hear talk about Pagoclone and hope/demand for it, I researched the mechanism behind it. Basically like any anti-anxiety drug or alcohol to some extent, it increased your brain's receptivity to GABA, a inhibitory neurotransmitter. When you take a xanax, valium, lorazapam or drink etc, you're brain can uptake more and it helps control the firings (mis-firings the case of stutters) of the neurons in the brain. If any of you have noticed you are a bit more relaxed and fluent when on drugs, this is why.

What makes Pagoclone promising is it is specially formulated to work on GABA receptors and is a different class of drug compared to typical anxiety meds.

While not normally sold in stores, GABA, usually sold in a powder or capsuels, is available online. I buy mine from luckyvitamin.com. I have been taking either 5-7 750mg capsuels or 2 teaspoons of powder mixed into water or juice. It tends to take about 30 minutes to be absorbed and to feel a calming effect and sometimes helps when taken with a small amount of food.

I strongly reccomend you take a b-6 or b-complex vitamin along side it to help it absorb. Glutamine is also a precursor and helps it's effect but does not have a huge difference.

So that said. I have been taking my 5-7 pill or 2 teaspoon dose for about a year now and it has made a TON of difference. I've had the best effect taking a few doses throughout the day and a larger dose in the evening.

I wouldn't post here If I didn't believe this would totally help people as it did with me. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE someone give this a shot and tell me how it goes!!!! Spread the word too if anyone is going to NSA meeting and such. This is by no means a cure but by far the best treatment I have found.

-Nick

[studentdoc]

Which brand do you use? I am going to buy some. Also, do you take the 5-7 pills at once, or is that the total you take throughout the day? How long have you been on it? Thanks...

[speedlimit]

I use source naturals. Yes, I take the 5-7 pills all at once or 2 teaspoons. I've been using it for about 6 months and it works wonders when I use it. NOW makes a less expensive brand but the powder or pills from Source Naturals work the best for me.

[Silent]

speedlimit - how much GABA is in those pills you're taking?
I googled up "source naturals gaba" and the product that came up is 750 mg per tablet, with the suggested use of one tablet daily.

[speedlimit]

yeah onw 750mg pill has no effect. Non-stutters dont need as much gaba because their brains function differently. Some bodybuilders take up to 10x the reccomended daily dose because it promotes good sleep.

[urbanmermaid]

hmm is this thing authorised etc? i dont like experimenting on myself with random stuff. 7 pills * 750mg is quite a lot of stuff

[speedlimit]

just try taking one or two then. I wouldn't recommend people stuff that didnt work. I've stuttered my whole life and this is the only gleam of hope I've had so far. Try it yourself. What more can I say?

[Asif]

hmm is this thing authorised etc? i dont like experimenting on myself with random stuff. 7 pills * 750mg is quite a lot of stuff

A very wise way of looking at things.
Stutterers can be so involved with their stuttering that in their desperation to find relief, almost any course of action wins their approval.

Anyone who has - or is - taking this drug, might calmly report their experiences without suggesting that everybody does the same.
Isn't that the very reason some of you get so upset by Christians?

And although a simple pill may be the wonder "cure" you seek, what I have learned about pills, is that they almost always mask, or alleviate a problem.
Almost never do they provide a final "cure".

Even the very few pills that do effect a cure - for example antibiotics, or anti-worming pills - can only "cure" until the next instance of infection.

[ahmed]

l hope pagoclone will reduce our stuttering even with minor side effect
because stuttering is very painful even you accept it
every one of us need help

[Asif]

l hope pagoclone will reduce our stuttering even with minor side effect
because stuttering is very painful even you accept it
every one of us need help

Quite so.
It is the side effects - if there are any - that make me wonder.

[sst]

hmm is this thing authorised etc? i dont like experimenting on myself with random stuff. 7 pills * 750mg is quite a lot of stuff

I'm not really into testing out supplements on myself. I stopped taking multi-vitamins because it can cause cancer in men. I think it's men over 50, but still, better safe than sorry. :(

[Silent]

Thanks. I will definitely give it a try :)

[Asif]

Thanks. I will definitely give it a try :)

Lol :)
Y'all tell us how it works now, y'heah?

[Tom]

Drugs are not a cure to stuttering. Like all drugs, they just temporarily alleviate symptoms while doing all sorts of terrible things to your body. Any drug which affects awareness or your state of consciousness (such as alcohol) will have a temporary, positive effect on someone who stutters.

Using drugs to help with a stutter is simply avoiding the problem, and could lead to larger problems, like stuttering even more when not on the drug which could cause an addiction to such a drug.

[Silent]

Drugs are not a cure to stuttering. Like all drugs, they just temporarily alleviate symptoms while doing all sorts of terrible things to your body.
Do you have evidence that Pagoclone or GABA will do terrible things to my body?
And what are drugs anyway? Is a high-protein low-carb diet a drug? Are vitamins and calcium drugs? If so, are apples drugs because they contain vitamins and calcium?

Any drug which affects awareness or your state of consciousness (such as alcohol) will have a temporary, positive effect on someone who stutters.
That is not true. Alcohol makes me stutter more.

Using drugs to help with a stutter is simply avoiding the problem
Until a cure is found, anything you do about the problem is simply avoiding it.

[Tom]

Do you have evidence that Pagoclone or GABA will do terrible things to my body?
And what are drugs anyway? Is a high-protein low-carb diet a drug? Are vitamins and calcium drugs? If so, are apples drugs because they contain vitamins and calcium?

That is not true. Alcohol makes me stutter more.

Until a cure is found, anything you do about the problem is simply avoiding it.

A drug is any chemical substance that is absorbed into the body. Almost all drugs, prescription or not, have some kind of negative effect on the body. Even painkillers and flu medication. Even if negative side effects aren't documented, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if I understand stuttering correctly, there magic cure you're all wanting doesn't exist. Practical cures do though. Stuttering is like Arthritis, there's many different types. It develops differently in different people. It's caused by different things and depending on the person, develops into different types of stuttering.

The fact that alcohol makes my speech better but makes yours worse is an example of why a universal "cure" will never see the light of day. Stuttering is purely psychological. Developing a universal cure for stuttering would be like developing a cure for those who are scared of spiders, or tigers, or heights, etc. Another thing, if a cure ever exists, I highly doubt it will be in the form of a pill or some kind of operation.

Practical cures do exist. None of them are overnight, none of them are really a walk in the park and there isn't one that's proven to suit all. What kind of cure are you waiting for exactly? Or are you just waiting for someone to figure out how to do the hard work for you?

[urbanmermaid]

Drugs are not a cure to stuttering. Like all drugs, they just temporarily alleviate symptoms while doing all sorts of terrible things to your body. Any drug which affects awareness or your state of consciousness (such as alcohol) will have a temporary, positive effect on someone who stutters.

Using drugs to help with a stutter is simply avoiding the problem, and could lead to larger problems, like stuttering even more when not on the drug which could cause an addiction to such a drug.

im sorry but this is sooo wrong.
first of all drugs dont do "terrible" things to your body UNLESS u overdose on them for 30 yrs non stop.
Alcohol does not have a positive effect on everyone's fluency.
Suppose u get a cold and take something that alleviates the symptoms, is that avoiding the real problem? What larger problems could it lead to?
and i can tell u from personal experience that stuttering does NOt increase when ur not on the drug.

basically uve never tried any drugs, uve just heard things that are absolutely wrong.

[Adrian]

im sorry but this is sooo wrong.
first of all drugs dont do "terrible" things to your body UNLESS u overdose on them for 30 yrs non stop.
Alcohol does not have a positive effect on everyone's fluency.
Suppose u get a cold and take something that alleviates the symptoms, is that avoiding the real problem? What larger problems could it lead to?
and i can tell u from personal experience that stuttering does NOt increase when ur not on the drug.

basically uve never tried any drugs, uve just heard things that are absolutely wrong.

Very true. Medications certainly have a place and can be used responsibly and safely. There may not be any real stuttering drugs out there now (the jury is still out on pagaclone), but there may be one sometime in the future. Research shows stuttering is likely caused by too much dopamine in certain areas of the brain. If a drug can put the dopamine back to it's normal levels, how is that avoiding the problem. It would seem you would be addressing the problem directly.

[Tom]

I've posted a couple of polite replies in various threads over 12 hours ago, but there not showing up. I'm so over this. Where's the freedom of speech that us stutterers crave?

[StutteringSteve]

haha and as a side note, i read this article/blog thingy in the newspaper last tuesday and it said:
"After , a man's dopamine levels drop dramatically, making the woman he's just bonked less attractive, less desirable and with a less of a chance that he's going to call her in the morning.
A woman, on the other hand, experiences the opposite effect. The increased oestrogen increases the effects of oxytocin in her brain, leading her to believe she's more in love and attached to the man she just slept with than before she did the do."
http://blogs.smh.com.au/lifestyle/asksam/archives/2008/12/bedroom_responses_his_vs_hers.html

so guys.. do you find you stutter less after you sleep with someone?

Thats too funny! :) Thats true with me I hardly stutter after !

[Thomkatt]

Thanks for the info speedlimit. That Gabba looks to be inexpesive and worth a try. Think I read something about it being good for those who exercise like myself.

[Yelena]

Hi, I just entered a Pagaclone trial last week and had to stop after 2 days of being on the pills. It was so sedating and killed whatever executive function I had. This drug is not a Side Effects free option and seems to affect many functions of the brain besides stuttering. It did made me care less about the stuttering, but also made me less care about other things too. I doubt at this point that medication that was removed from the further trials for relieve of anxiety will prove to be beneficial and safe for the treatment of atuttering per say.
I liked Tom's comment about specificity of the miracle medication to treat fear of snakes. It's right on the money. Pharmaciutical approach is generalized, not stuttering specific like CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) would be.
I am not against medications that help with stuttering, but there should be more transparency in pharmaciutical industry about mechanism of action of the drugs and their expected side effects

[urbanmermaid]

Hi, I just entered a Pagaclone trial last week and had to stop after 2 days of being on the pills. It was so sedating and killed whatever executive function I had. This drug is not a Side Effects free option and seems to affect many functions of the brain besides stuttering. It did made me care less about the stuttering, but also made me less care about other things too. I doubt at this point that medication that was removed from the further trials for relieve of anxiety will prove to be beneficial and safe for the treatment of atuttering per say.
I liked Tom's comment about specificity of the miracle medication to treat fear of snakes. It's right on the money. Pharmaciutical approach is generalized, not stuttering specific like CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) would be.
I am not against medications that help with stuttering, but there should be more transparency in pharmaciutical industry about mechanism of action of the drugs and their expected side effects

blimey, it had this effect after only 2 days?? Making you care less about stuttering after having taken it for such a very short period of time is quite impressive!
Did the people who run the trial mention when it's going to be released? I'm pretty excited about this stuff.

[ricardo]

Yelena you can be probably one of those 1%~2% where the drug causes some really adverse side effects. This happens with all the drugs.

I think we should wait for the scientific results to see if this really works or not, hopefully it will come out at the end of this year or beginning of 2010.

[urbanmermaid]

Is it 100% certain that they'll skip phase III and get direct FDA approval then?

I really wish there were qualified people here who would give their opinion on pagaclone as a whole.. soo many questions to answer!

Are drugs from the cyclopyrrolone family more powerful than benzodiazepines even tho they have more or less form of action yet dont cause dependence and the effect doesnt wear off...
Why hasnt any drug from that family been commercialised...
Could pagaclone be just a mixture of already available drugs like xanax, gaba, propranolol, buspar that have shown to improve one's fluency to some extent...

I doubt at this point that medication that was removed from the further trials for relieve of anxiety will prove to be beneficial and safe for the treatment of atuttering per say.

do you mean that because theyre supposedly skipping phase III? I'm not at all familiar with how these things work but i guess if something has proven its working then why go through all the pain to do more and more trials and only delaying the drug when there are ppl out there who really need it. Besides, lets face it. Indevus is the only company making pagaclone and owning the patent. The sooner they release this thing the sooner they'll get mega rich.. its caused quite a lot of excitement and they know that once its on the market they'll be earning millions

[studentdoc]

if something has proven its working then why go through all the pain to do more and more trials and only delaying the drug when there are ppl out there who really need it. Besides, lets face it. Indevus is the only company making pagaclone and owning the patent. The sooner they release this thing the sooner they'll get mega rich.. its caused quite a lot of excitement and they know that once its on the market they'll be earning millions

It is not up to Indevus - it is the FDA that requires these phases. And the reason is MONEY. The FDA makes a TON of money off these. If it were up to Indevus, they'd release this after Phase I.

[peebee]

do you mean that because theyre supposedly skipping phase III? I'm not at all familiar with how these things work but i guess if something has proven its working then why go through all the pain to do more and more trials and only delaying the drug when there are ppl out there who really need it. Besides, lets face it. Indevus is the only company making pagaclone and owning the patent. The sooner they release this thing the sooner they'll get mega rich.. its caused quite a lot of excitement and they know that once its on the market they'll be earning millions

I'm not at all an expert but the reason the whole process is so time consuming is for our (the consumers) protection. Making sure it works is just one of the many things that needs to be thoroughly examined like side effects, abuse potential, etc... The approval process alone costs companies millions of dollars in processing expenses.

Yes there's a lot of regulatory red tape and most likely it isn't needed and they could successfully push it on the market today but I'd rather be safe then sorry...

[JFan]

Hi, I just entered a Pagaclone trial last week and had to stop after 2 days of being on the pills. It was so sedating and killed whatever executive function I had. This drug is not a Side Effects free option and seems to affect many functions of the brain besides stuttering. It did made me care less about the stuttering, but also made me less care about other things too. I doubt at this point that medication that was removed from the further trials for relieve of anxiety will prove to be beneficial and safe for the treatment of atuttering per say.
I liked Tom's comment about specificity of the miracle medication to treat fear of snakes. It's right on the money. Pharmaciutical approach is generalized, not stuttering specific like CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) would be.
I am not against medications that help with stuttering, but there should be more transparency in pharmaciutical industry about mechanism of action of the drugs and their expected side effects


Two days seems very short for this drug to do so much damage. Most of these types of drugs take at least a week to "get into your system". I started on Pag. 10 days ago, and have not had any side effects so far....

[milknbutter]

God I wish I lived in the US.

[urbanmermaid]

Two days seems very short for this drug to do so much damage. Most of these types of drugs take at least a week to "get into your system". I started on Pag. 10 days ago, and have not had any side effects so far....

So no side effects like sleepiness etc? Any improvement in fluency though?

[fearfactory]

yeah.. what happened after 10 days..?

[kobe4three]

yes please the pagoclone users please keep us updated on your fluency

[urbanmermaid]

God I wish I lived in the US.

Me too! I think its really unfair that the trials are being carried out only in the US... Obviously they cant make a worldwide trial in every country of the world but at least a couple of countries in Europe would be very helpful... Theyd also get more participants, but i guess that would cost even more to the company.

Let's hope this phase is the final one and around this time next yr they'll release it

[JFan]

Well, I wish I had positive news....but I strongly feel I have the Placebo. I feel and hear no improvement at all. There are 3 groups of people. One who get a high dose, one with a lose dose, and one with placebo. However, along the way some people in these groups change to the placebo, and some who start with the placebo change to Pagaclone....so I'm hoping this is my Placebo!!!! Eventually EVERYONE who is in the study receives Pagaclone....sooooo basically I'm in a waiting game.

[ahmed]

iam afraid of receptor down regulation with the continue use of drugs also dependence becuase most drugs of benzadizepime family lead to psycological and phsiological dependence

[JFan]

Not sure in anyone cares....but I thought I'd give a bit of an update on my Pagaclone experience. About a week ago, I started noticing that my amount of fluency started to increase, and my "fear" of speaking in situations started to decrease. Obviously they are connected....(more fluency, more self-esteem), and I had a couple people who know I'm in the study, tell me they could really "hear" a difference??? I did not feel THAT MUCH of a improvemnt, however in the past few days...I really can feel a large improvement in fluency and the level of blocks starting to decrease..

I start the 3rd bottle in about a week or so.....hopefully the good news will continue!

[kobe4three]

Not sure in anyone cares....but I thought I'd give a bit of an update on my Pagaclone experience. About a week ago, I started noticing that my amount of fluency started to increase, and my "fear" of speaking in situations started to decrease. Obviously they are connected....(more fluency, more self-esteem), and I had a couple people who know I'm in the study, tell me they could really "hear" a difference??? I did not feel THAT MUCH of a improvemnt, however in the past few days...I really can feel a large improvement in fluency and the level of blocks starting to decrease..

I start the 3rd bottle in about a week or so.....hopefully the good news will continue!nice man!.good to hear its working for you..what about ual effects did you experience any?

[JFan]

nice man!.good to hear its working for you..what about ual effects did you experience any?

Not as of yet.....still can do my thang! :D

[Jaykon]

Not as of yet.....still can do my thang! :D

Whoah too much info!

[mrglitch]

When is this going to be released to the public?

[howeee]

at least 2 years away