Speech Therapy experiences.

[Asif]

I have often wondered if there are any success stories out there concerning experiences with speech therapists.
I have had negligible results from my own experiences.
To wit...

Miss Metherall.
I was about ten years old. She gained my confidence and then asked me what was the absolute worst thing about being a stutterer. I told her: when kids at the children's home, where I lived, called me a "stutter-baby".
She then called me a "stutter-baby".
Which really didn't do a lot for my ability to trust people.

Then a rather plain old bat, when I was about 12.
The only thing I remember about her was that she made me lie down on the floor in front of the desk where she sat and told me to relax.
I don't know whether or not she realized I could see all the way up her skirt to her stocking tops and panties.
I enjoyed that, but it did nothing for my stutter.

Long break - I was in my late 20's - when I met Jan Karlberg.
She was nice: I really liked her. But the only thing she was able to achieve was to teach me to speak like a frozen retard, freshly dug up from a glacier.
Long drawn out sounds at a rate of about three words a minute.
I decided that - as bad as my stutter was - I would rather have that, than sound retarded.

And that is about it for my adventures with therapy.
Does anyone have any more positive outcomes to share?

[Silent]

I did a program years ago and had great success with it. It was a 2 week residential course, followed up with more than a year of monthly sessions. I spoke fluently for 2 or so years and relapsed, though it never became as bad as before. I'm still practicing the techniques learned there for 45 - 60 min every day.

I'm starting another program in January next year. It's a 3 week intensive course, involving cognitive therapy, desensitization, block modification, and a fluency technique. Hopefully it will be another step towards easier speech :)

[TenaciousD]

I have often wondered if there are any success stories out there concerning experiences with speech therapists.
I have had negligible results from my own experiences.
To wit...

Miss Metherall.
I was about ten years old. She gained my confidence and then asked me what was the absolute worst thing about being a stutterer. I told her: when kids at the children's home, where I lived, called me a "stutter-baby".
She then called me a "stutter-baby".
Which really didn't do a lot for my ability to trust people.

Then a rather plain old bat, when I was about 12.
The only thing I remember about her was that she made me lie down on the floor in front of the desk where she sat and told me to relax.
I don't know whether or not she realized I could see all the way up her skirt to her stocking tops and panties.
I enjoyed that, but it did nothing for my stutter.

Long break - I was in my late 20's - when I met Jan Karlberg.
She was nice: I really liked her. But the only thing she was able to achieve was to teach me to speak like a frozen retard, freshly dug up from a glacier.
Long drawn out sounds at a rate of about three words a minute.
I decided that - as bad as my stutter was - I would rather have that, than sound retarded.

And that is about it for my adventures with therapy.
Does anyone have any more positive outcomes to share?

lol........ that was really funny.....I've only gone to one speech therapist.......she was really hot....and thats about all I remember........ Come to think of it.....I really wish she would of done that lay on the floor relaxation exercise with me as well.........Ide probably still enjoy visualizing the memory:D

[TenaciousD]

I did a program years ago and had great success with it. It was a 2 week residential course, followed up with more than a year of monthly sessions. I spoke fluently for 2 or so years and relapsed, though it never became as bad as before. I'm still practicing the techniques learned there for 45 - 60 min every day.

I'm starting another program in January next year. It's a 3 week intensive course, involving cognitive therapy, desensitization, block modification, and a fluency technique. Hopefully it will be another step towards easier speech :)

Hey good luck w/ your upcoming intensive course..... keep us informed as to how it turns out:)

[Silent]

Hey good luck w/ your upcoming intensive course..... keep us informed as to how it turns out:)
I will. Thanks :)

[JDRow]

I had a very positive experience in speech therapy. I went for about a year and a half, until about six months ago or so. It was twice-weekly sessions at my university speech clinic. It wasn't, I don't think, amazing therapy and it didn't make me fluent, but it was helpful. I had never really been to speech therapy before--I'd gone for short periods of time in elementary school and middle school, but I wouldn't talk to the therapist and so I didn't get anything out of it--and just learning some techniques was a big help. When I started my stutter was really, really bad, and I would end up not being able to finish what I was saying a lot of the time, and just learning a few things like easy starts and pull-outs helped me to get where, even though I still stutter a lot, I feel confident most of the time that I'll be able to get out what I need to say.

Mainly it was helpful with talking more. I had two people I would talk to before I started speech therapy, and I was just constantly avoiding. I think I really needed somebody to kind of push me and hold me accountable for talking more, which my therapist did. She wasn't really high-pressure about, like saying I had to talk to five strangers or anything, but she would help me to figure out some things I could do that week to avoid less than I had been, and then hold me to that when I went back. That was the most useful thing for me, because I can easily go a long time not talking to anybody but my girlfriend and one of my sisters (the two people it's pretty easy for me to talk to), but then I just start getting more anxious about talking and it makes my stutter worse.

[urbanmermaid]

speech therapists. a topic i can spend hours talking about. lets just say their job is pretty useless and in a few yrs time they'll have to switch careers

[TenaciousD]

speech therapists. a topic i can spend hours talking about. lets just say their job is pretty useless and in a few yrs time they'll have to switch careers

URBANMERMAID........ I wish I could have a speech therapist that looked just like you:D

[emily445455]

speech therapists. a topic i can spend hours talking about. lets just say their job is pretty useless and in a few yrs time they'll have to switch careers

Lol, what? I know many, many, many people who have been helped (or cured if they have a articulation disorder, language disorder, stroke-patient) by speech therapists.

SLP's are in high demand in most of the country of USA...I highly doubt we'll have to find new jobs :)

[urbanmermaid]

well ive never met anyone who has been cured by speech therapists. i really dislike them but then thats just my modest opinion. if u can make a living out of it good for u

[tunkara]

I don't think it matters either you take therapy programs or not.It depends on yourself,how you feel about yourself, how you see others and how you think.
I think being positive is the best way to gain confidence and better speaking approaches.
I have not taken therapy myself,but I like being positive and I stutter mildly. I hope you will all understand the broad meaning when I speak about POSITIVE APPROACH.
Thank you all.

[peebee]

speech therapists. a topic i can spend hours talking about. lets just say their job is pretty useless and in a few yrs time they'll have to switch careers

I completely agree speech therapy is useless for stuttering--I was in and out of speech therapy (both public and private practices) for years. They do make quite a bit of money (over 100/hr) and a Master's is required to become licensed. To be realistic though, it's not like they can wave a magic wand and make your anxiety disappear. Their job has a lot more breadth then just stutterers

[urbanmermaid]

i hate how this forum revolves around the same things over and over again...... havent there been enough threads about speech therapy already? its the same stuff every day... really negative posts about how someone feels totally crap, therapy, books, etc etc. I mean, dont u ppl have other problems in ur lives besides a stutter?

[Silent]

I completely agree speech therapy is useless for stuttering
How can you and urbanmermaid make such absolute statements, despite the success others cl to have had?
Had you said "Speech therapy has failed me", it would make sense.

[emily445455]

I'm sure glad there are speech therapists who specialize in stuttering. There is little known about it now...just think how much would be known if there were not SLP researchers....

[Asif]

How can you and urbanmermaid make such absolute statements, despite the success others cl to have had?
Had you said "Speech therapy has failed me", it would make sense.

Well yes it would.
But ask yourself: don't we all see our own stutters as everyone else's too?
Easy to forget that there are as many different kinds of stutter, and for as many different causes as there are people who stutter.

[urbanmermaid]

Well yes it would.
But ask yourself: don't we all see our own stutters as everyone else's too?
Easy to forget that there are as many different kinds of stutter, and for as many different causes as there are people who stutter.

thats very true. ive only met a couple of ppl who stutter in my life and they all seem to do so in different ways. i was in a cafe with my dad the other day and there were 3 elderly ppl on a table next to us.. one of the men seemd like he had what i would call a stutter, not sure tho, but like real real bad. he basically struggled to utter the basic sounds of the beginning of words... it was very painful to listen to, definitely the worst stutter ive ever heard.. if it was a stutter that is. and not something other like what ppl get after a stroke etc

[Silent]

he basically struggled to utter the basic sounds of the beginning of words... it was very painful to listen to
Most stutterers I've met stuttered (or had stuttered) like that and were totally unintelligible, but I've met them through therapy, and it was a really tough program, best suited for severe stutterers.

Now I'm living in another city (and another country) and the only stutterers I get to see here are those attending the local support group meetings. None of them stutters as badly as I do. I suppose they are more representative of the average stutterer than what I had known before I moved here.

[peebee]

I don't think it matters either you take therapy programs or not.It depends on yourself,how you feel about yourself, how you see others and how you think.
I think being positive is the best way to gain confidence and better speaking approaches.
I have not taken therapy myself,but I like being positive and I stutter mildly. I hope you will all understand the broad meaning when I speak about POSITIVE APPROACH.
Thank you all.

Those are very true words. When it comes down to it, how confident you are as a person is really all that matters when it comes to fluency. I think I've said this before but I've only met a few stutterers in my life and one of them is an excellent public speaker. He doesn't care that he stutters--although his stutter is very mild(but so are many of ours on this forum)--I don't even think he realizes he does it. He's been in a lot of my classes and he's the kind of guy that sits at the first row in 1,000+ ppl lecture halls and always puts up his hand and gives his opinion/answers questions in class. I'd classify his stutter as a light version of the billy madison stutter (t-t-t-today) and it doesn't effect him at all because he's just brimming with confidence.

If you look at almost all the ex-stutterers who are great public speakers they all say the same thing: They had a positive and proactive approach to enhancing their fluency and they all worked hard to achieve their fluency. A lot of people are looking for a quick fix and think some shitty $5,000 device that costs $8 to make will magically cure them of their illness. Medications on the other hand are somewhat reliable because they actually change your emotions, but there are drawbacks as well. There's so much negativity and arguing (which I've sadly been a part of) on this forum I honestly feel depressed reading some of the posts. When all is said and done, if you can't see all the positives in your life and how you have it better then the kids who are starving, kids being born into slavery, blind/deaf/crippled etc... people then its your own fault your life is shitty

[jak]

slps are useless they like to string people along to get money out of them because that is how they make ther living on our desperation

[Violet]

yeah speech therepy is expensive :mad:
at the moment i'm seeing one for $60 for 30 minutes.. but i really like her and even though she doesnt really help, she helps me help myself.. if that makes any sense? :p She's more moral support.. which is the thing i need most in terms of stuttering i reckon.. Much cheaper to hang out with stutteres though..too bad i don't actually know any.. :(
where the hell would you find people who stutter?? :confused:

[emily445455]

yeah speech therepy is expensive :mad:
at the moment i'm seeing one for $60 for 30 minutes.. but i really like her and even though she doesnt really help, she helps me help myself.. if that makes any sense? :p She's more moral support.. which is the thing i need most in terms of stuttering i reckon.. Much cheaper to hang out with stutteres though..too bad i don't actually know any..
where the hell would you find people who stutter??

Any NSA stuttering support groups in your area? Maybe as your SLP if she knows of any, or check out NSA's website :) I find them helpful, and they are free! :D

[stutterpress]

Your success rate at the speech therapist depends on what kind of therapist are you visiting. A speech pathologist who thinks stuttering can be cured by relaxing and speaking slowly, really needs a reality check and probably has no clue what hes doing. But a qualified speech pathologist who knows how to deal with stutterers can do wonders for a stutterer.

Speech therapy requires determination beyond imagination and def requires a hell lot of dedication. Yes you might find it weird to talk in a different, its just because you're not used to it. We all are so tied down to these norms created by the society, this definition of NORMAL defines each one of us and our lives. I think its rubbish, we define who we are. And yes, I have met people who have gotten over their stuttering by speech therapy. When you're undergoing speech therapy, you eat and sleep it, you practice it so much, that it becomes a part of you. You take risks, put yourself in situations where you couldnt have imagined yourself in before.

Therapy is not to blame for our failure, only we are.

[emily445455]

Therapy is not to blame for our failure, only we are.


I don't see stuttering as failing :)

[johnrob2]

I think that speech therapists can be very effective at treating stuttering. I am a person who stutters and am studying right now to be a speech pathologist. I know all too well the trials of being a person who stutters and I also know how much work it takes to overcome stuttering. I still stutter but I do not consider it a failure. I am working towards becoming fluent and accepting and becoming more comfortable with my stuttering everyday. I think to judge all speech pathologists on only a few negative personal experiences is not logical. I plan to be a very good speech pathologists who can treat stuttering effectively.

[stutterpress]

I don't see stuttering as failing :)

Topic in regard is Speech therapy, we undergo it expecting changes and when it doesn't happen, we take it as a failure. Stuttering in itself is not a failure, the fact that we underwent speech therapy and didn't benefit out of it is failure.

[urbanmermaid]

hey i can be ur moral support for 60 bucks for only half an hour! i dont need to be a therapist to do that lol

[emily445455]

Topic in regard is Speech therapy, we undergo it expecting changes and when it doesn't happen, we take it as a failure. Stuttering in itself is not a failure, the fact that we underwent speech therapy and didn't benefit out of it is failure.


Hmm...I still don't see that as failing since stuttering can never truely be cured. It is an ongoing battle for our entire lives, not something that can be fixed in a years worth of speech therapy meetings.

[emily445455]

Topic in regard is Speech therapy, we undergo it expecting changes and when it doesn't happen, we take it as a failure. Stuttering in itself is not a failure, the fact that we underwent speech therapy and didn't benefit out of it is failure.


Hmm...I still don't see that as failing since stuttering can never truely be cured. It is an ongoing battle for our entire lives, not something that can be fixed in a years worth of speech therapy meetings.


I also don't see others who haven't been able to "fix" their speech impediments that aren't stuttering as failures. My sister has been in speech therapy for a good number of years, but still has an /r/ articulation problem. I don't see her as a failure. It's not something as easy as losing weight or quit smoking. Speech problems are usually things people put up with for life, even when they are "cured".

[Mike85]

I have had speechtherapy since I was young. It helped really good when I was a kid. Finished my 'kid' therapy when I was 11 and was almost fluent for a few years then. But when I entered puberty it came back and worse then ever. Since then I have followed both individual and grouptherapy. They helped me quite alot. My speech has improved (not near as much as I would have liked though) and helped me in the mental aspect.

Here in The Netherlands speechtherapy is covered in the health insurance so luckily for me its 'free' to have speechtherapy.

[stutterpress]

Hmm...I still don't see that as failing since stuttering can never truely be cured. It is an ongoing battle for our entire lives, not something that can be fixed in a years worth of speech therapy meetings.


I also don't see others who haven't been able to "fix" their speech impediments that aren't stuttering as failures. My sister has been in speech therapy for a good number of years, but still has an /r/ articulation problem. I don't see her as a failure. It's not something as easy as losing weight or quit smoking. Speech problems are usually things people put up with for life, even when they are "cured".

Well failure could mean different things for different people. As I see it, its a mark on the scale, that we set when we set out to do something, thats like our expectation. Some might join speech therapy hoping to be fluent one day, some might join hoping to feel okay beneath their skin with their stuttering, so and so forth. Failures just a mark on the scale and for everybody it differs. Absolutely agreed, getting over stuttering is not something as easy as losing weight, we all wish it was, but its completely learning how to talk, all over again. Therapy is an ongoing process that probably never stops. Stuttering can never really be cured, but the degree to what you stutter can sure vary and be improved on, for the most cases you can't even make out if they stutter anymore, only they themselves know that they are stuttering. If you don't mind, may I ask whether your sister has an articulation disorder or stuttering in its true form? I have an articulation disorder, so just thought I'd ask :)

[emily445455]

If you don't mind, may I ask whether your sister has an articulation disorder or stuttering in its true form? I have an articulation disorder, so just thought I'd ask :)

Both. /r/ artic disorder and a moderate stutter.

[urbanmermaid]

hmm wait a sec... isnt stuttering a kind of articulation disorder? how can they be separated?

[Violet]

what is an articulation disorder? and whats the difference between that and a stutter?
Is it more like the person can't say a certain sound.. but then that sounds kinda like blocking..
:confused:

[peebee]

the difference is an articulation disorder they are fluent but the speech is difficult to interpret

for example (hi how are you doing today) i ow are you ing ay

[needausername]

My experiences with therapy are:
I did not have much luck with speech therapy. I went to speech therapy for many years. I did have temporary fluency for a while after attending a weeklong summer speech camp.

[Violet]

the difference is an articulation disorder they are fluent but the speech is difficult to interpret

for example (hi how are you doing today) i ow are you ing ay

ahhhh i getcha... that makes heeps more sense :p

[Violet]

My experiences with therapy are:
I did not have much luck with speech therapy. I went to speech therapy for many years. I did have temporary fluency for a while after attending a weeklong summer speech camp.

cool username :D
what type of stutter do you have? (i.e. do you have mostly repetitions, or blocks, or both?)

[needausername]

cool username :D
what type of stutter do you have? (i.e. do you have mostly repetitions, or blocks, or both?)

I have both blocks and repetitions. My stutter is very severe.

[emily445455]

hmm wait a sec... isnt stuttering a kind of articulation disorder? how can they be separated?

There are many, many different kinds of disorders SLPs treat, stuttering is just one of them.

Articulation disorders are, yes, what is discribed above with some phonological problems mixed in (which is another set of problems).

Artic disorders, for short, are basically the distortion or omission of a single phoneme (sound). My sister distorts the /r/ sound. So like in "father" it comes out "fathaw" Like Boston's accent kind of.

Phonological disorders are when someone doesn't understand speech rules. That's too complex to explain right now since it's so early and i'm still half asleep :p

Both of the above disorders are seperate disorders from each other and from stuttering. And there are many many many more disorders SLP's work with: Voice disorders, stroke patients, TBI patients, swallowing disorders, dementia patients, language disorders, hearing loss patients, and so on.

[stutterpress]

Its very difficult for me to get the first letter of the word out, often if the words are starting with K, T, etc. After the first letter flows out, the word follows smoothly. The articulation of some words is not proper and I get stuck on the first letter and I seem to choke. When I was young, I would pronounce S as F and even till date my articulation of R is very much like Emily's sister, who says fathaw instead of father. So I'm training these days for proper pronunciation of letters, by proper opening of the mouth and tongue movement, tongue vibration, mixing in letters to make sounds etc.

[stutterpress]

I just looked up Articulatory Disorder in detail, the description barely matches any of my symptoms, apart from the struggling with the first letters of the word and letter substitution that is.

[ratboy]

you won't find many success stories in this STUTTERING forum. (or elsewhere).

[nate]

you won't find many success stories in this STUTTERING forum. (or elsewhere).

i beg to differ.
i'm sorry but people on this forum have a away of hounding anyone who cls to be cured or even controlled. they have called them quacks, liars, sellouts, i mean... read the archives.
There was a bloke on here Greenstein that got a bollocking like everyday for his pains. Hans was another one...he just called it quits. there was another guy who had a speech easy and it was as if he'd sold his soul to the devil! And Steve...aka POT who is far from cured but always tried to extol the virtues of accepting oneself and getting on with the business of life...he's giving the forum a wide berth.
i could go on but i'd rather not. its dreadful the way some people carry on. positively off-putting if u ask me. nowonder u wont find any stories coz people are AFRAID TO POST 'EM!

*breaths deeply and counts to ten*
Nate

[happy7117]

URBANMERMAID........ I wish I could have a speech therapist that looked just like you:D

Here, here!!

Maybe it would turn into more than speech therapy;)

[happy7117]

I have both blocks and repetitions. My stutter is very severe.

Try profound--that's a better word for me!

It's a unfair son of a biotch!!!

[John Woo]

well for me personally, I have no concerning experiences with speech therapists. I always says there is almost no organization or speech therapists to help me in china. I am a little disappointed. But I think if you are more eager and less lasy to struggle with the stutter, you will conquer it sooner of later. You know stutter is just a bad habit, not a disease. :D
So this bad habit will be changed with the help of ourselves and our friends.

[ratboy]

i beg to differ.
i'm sorry but people on this forum have a away of hounding anyone who cls to be cured or even controlled. they have called them quacks, liars, sellouts, i mean... read the archives.
There was a bloke on here Greenstein that got a bollocking like everyday for his pains. Hans was another one...he just called it quits. there was another guy who had a speech easy and it was as if he'd sold his soul to the devil! And Steve...aka POT who is far from cured but always tried to extol the virtues of accepting oneself and getting on with the business of life...he's giving the forum a wide berth.
i could go on but i'd rather not. its dreadful the way some people carry on. positively off-putting if u ask me. nowonder u wont find any stories coz people are AFRAID TO POST 'EM!

*breaths deeply and counts to ten*
Nate

Nate, I want you to prepair a table with success stories vis a vis still stuttering after therapy. To the result you'll get, the most pure concept of FACT there is, I was referring to: for the great majority of people, it doesn't work.
"But 25% percent of kids after therapy..." Yeah, there haven't been any real testing on that, those kids could have as well stopped stuttering on their own.
Nothing personal, I wasn't "hounding" anybody. Not this time, at least ;)

[Adrian]

i beg to differ.
i'm sorry but people on this forum have a away of hounding anyone who cls to be cured or even controlled. they have called them quacks, liars, sellouts, i mean... read the archives.
There was a bloke on here Greenstein that got a bollocking like everyday for his pains. Hans was another one...he just called it quits. there was another guy who had a speech easy and it was as if he'd sold his soul to the devil! And Steve...aka POT who is far from cured but always tried to extol the virtues of accepting oneself and getting on with the business of life...he's giving the forum a wide berth.
i could go on but i'd rather not. its dreadful the way some people carry on. positively off-putting if u ask me. nowonder u wont find any stories coz people are AFRAID TO POST 'EM!

*breaths deeply and counts to ten*
Nate

Nate,

I completely disagree. If people come here and simply share their positive experiences, nothing happens. Bill Hargis, for instance, has often shared his success with the speecheasy and has never been attacked. Why not? Because he behaves like a gentlemen and does not push his beliefs on others.

The others you mention (perhaps not POT) come on this board as wanna be gurus, who are rude, arrogant, and have all the answers. The believe everyone should follow their path and belittle those who don't.

If you don't believe me, read through the archives.

Adrian

[agantx]

well ive never met anyone who has been cured by speech therapists. i really dislike them but then thats just my modest opinion. if u can make a living out of it good for u

Here's some news to you. At present time there is no cure to stuttering. That's why it's not speech therapist's goal to cure his/her clients from stuttering. Speech pathologists just teach us speech rules or special techniques that with time and enough practice and hard work modify our stuttering. They make it much easier with a lot less tension and a lot less blocks. They also let us control stuttering and take full charge of our speech mechanism. That's why speech therapists are doing a lot of good and changing millions of people's lives. That is people who stutter and many other people with other speech disorders. Remember if you didn't benefit from speech therapy yourself, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work or isn't helping a lot of people or speech therapists are just wasting their lives doing this... :)

[agantx]

To be realistic though, it's not like they can wave a magic wand and make your anxiety disappear.

You are right. Speech therapy only is going to work if a person who stutters is willing to do what his speech therapist suggests, put in a good effort, work hard, spend a lot of time practicing his speech rules and at the same time speaking to a lot of new people. This is the only way speech therapy will help a person to get his stuttering under control and at the same time suppress his negative feelings like shyness, low self esteem and lack of confidence.

To put it another way, speech therapist is like a general. Person who stutters is like a regular soldier. General's job is to create a good military strategy and to issue orders to his army of regular soldiers. If his army is poorly trained, the general will lose in a battle or a war no matter how good he is at his job. The same thing is with speech therapists and people who stutter. If a person who stutters isn't willing to do all the work and do what his speech therapist suggests, speech therapy will never work no matter how good his speech therapist might be...

[Asif]

Nate,
If people come here and simply share their positive experiences, nothing happens.

Exactly.
Shake it up a bit and look what happens.
Even a mole could not fail to notice the anger content around here.
Stutterers = anger.
It's a start.

[JDRow]

Hans made the same argument about stutterers all being angry and hostile. It looked to me from the outside like he was the one who was angry and hostile, and was projecting it onto everybody else.

Do you have any empirical evidence that stutterers=anger? I don't know a single person, stutterer or not, who is never angry. I know plenty of non-stutterers who are angry a hell of a lot of the time. So unless you can provide evidence that stutterers are, as a group, more angry on average than non-stutterers (which, as far as I know, no study has ever shown--they've all shown stutterers to be no different psychologically from non-stutterers), you might want to rethink your theory, or at least expect to be challenged on it.

[Adrian]

Do you have any empirical evidence that stutterers=anger? I don't know a single person, stutterer or not, who is never angry. I know plenty of non-stutterers who are angry a hell of a lot of the time. So unless you can provide evidence that stutterers are, as a group, more angry on average than non-stutterers (which, as far as I know, no study has ever shown--they've all shown stutterers to be no different psychologically from non-stutterers), you might want to rethink your theory, or at least expect to be challenged on it.

JD, you are absolutely correct. Most people, whether they stutter or not, would get angry if someone came on to their discussion group spewing hate and intolerance in the way David has.

[Adrian]

You are right. Speech therapy only is going to work if a person who stutters is willing to do what his speech therapist suggests, put in a good effort, work hard, spend a lot of time practicing his speech rules and at the same time speaking to a lot of new people. This is the only way speech therapy will help a person to get his stuttering under control and at the same time suppress his negative feelings like shyness, low self esteem and lack of confidence.

To put it another way, speech therapist is like a general. Person who stutters is like a regular soldier. General's job is to create a good military strategy and to issue orders to his army of regular soldiers. If his army is poorly trained, the general will lose in a battle or a war no matter how good he is at his job. The same thing is with speech therapists and people who stutter. If a person who stutters isn't willing to do all the work and do what his speech therapist suggests, speech therapy will never work no matter how good his speech therapist might be...

The problem with your general/soldier analogy is that most speech therapists do not understand stuttering and don't have the knowledge to lead us. Speech therapists in the US are not required to take any classes or do any clinical work in stuttering to treat us. Sure some have some training in stuttering, but these may be in antiquated techniques that simply don't work. I am not saying there are not a handful of good stuttering therapists, but most have no business treating stuttering.

I am curious, are you a speech therapist or a speech therapy student?

[agantx]

The problem with your general/soldier analogy is that most speech therapists do not understand stuttering and don't have the knowledge to lead us. Speech therapists in the US are not required to take any classes or do any clinical work in stuttering to treat us. Sure some have some training in stuttering, but these may be in antiquated techniques that simply don't work. I am not saying there are not a handful of good stuttering therapists, but most have no business treating stuttering.

It's true that many speech therapists don't know how to treat stuttering or have any experience in treating it. Especially if they don't specialize in stuttering treatment. But I don't know if this applies to most speech pathologists who specifically treat people with stuttering and not other speech related disorders. I bet many speech therapists that treat people with stuttering disorder know what they are doing, especially if they have experience. Speech therapy field you know isn't new and has passed the test of time. Over many decades speech therapy researchers through trial and error came up with techniques or speech rules that help a lot of if not most people with stuttering to control their stuttering if they are determined and are willing to put in a lot of work.

I am curious, are you a speech therapist or a speech therapy student?

By the way I'm not a speech therapist or a speech therapy student. I'm just a regular person who stutters. But I wish I was... ;)

The reason I know so much about speech therapy and stuttering is that I had speech therapy for a very large part of my life. I also was in two intensive speech programs. One was in Ohio and another in NYC at American Institute for Stuttering. I also read about it in my free time in order to be informed. If you want to know more about my life story and where I come from just pay a visit to my new blog... :D

[nate]

Nate,

I completely disagree. If people come here and simply share their positive experiences, nothing happens. Bill Hargis, for instance, has often shared his success with the speecheasy and has never been attacked. Why not? Because he behaves like a gentlemen and does not push his beliefs on others.

The others you mention (perhaps not POT) come on this board as wanna be gurus, who are rude, arrogant, and have all the answers. The believe everyone should follow their path and belittle those who don't.

If you don't believe me, read through the archives.

Adrian

u are both right.
i was a bit irritated that day. i mean how can every single thread be a showdown between SST, JD, U and Asif/Hans/David (he's covered three semitic religious names there).
U r right...there are success stories. Just not lately.
Nate

[happy7117]

Those are very true words. When it comes down to it, how confident you are as a person is really all that matters when it comes to fluency. I think I've said this before but I've only met a few stutterers in my life and one of them is an excellent public speaker. He doesn't care that he stutters--although his stutter is very mild(but so are many of ours on this forum)--I don't even think he realizes he does it. He's been in a lot of my classes and he's the kind of guy that sits at the first row in 1,000+ ppl lecture halls and always puts up his hand and gives his opinion/answers questions in class. I'd classify his stutter as a light version of the billy madison stutter (t-t-t-today) and it doesn't effect him at all because he's just brimming with confidence.

If you look at almost all the ex-stutterers who are great public speakers they all say the same thing: They had a positive and proactive approach to enhancing their fluency and they all worked hard to achieve their fluency. A lot of people are looking for a quick fix and think some shitty $5,000 device that costs $8 to make will magically cure them of their illness. Medications on the other hand are somewhat reliable because they actually change your emotions, but there are drawbacks as well. There's so much negativity and arguing (which I've sadly been a part of) on this forum I honestly feel depressed reading some of the posts. When all is said and done, if you can't see all the positives in your life and how you have it better then the kids who are starving, kids being born into slavery, blind/deaf/crippled etc... people then its your own fault your life is shitty

Shitty $5,000 device? Speak for yourself my friend. These "shitty" devices help many stutterers. And stutterers benefit greatly from them.

You probably call them shitty because they did not work for you. That does not mean they are shitty for everyone.

[happy7117]

slps are useless they like to string people along to get money out of them because that is how they make ther living on our desperation

100% true. Could not agree more!

[sst]

Shitty $5,000 device? Speak for yourself my friend. These "shitty" devices help many stutterers. And stutterers benefit greatly from them.

You probably call them shitty because they did not work for you. That does not mean they are shitty for everyone.

After your brief vacation from the forum, you're still the same Happy. ;) Nothing will shatter your faith in the stuttering device.

[Asif]

Nothing will shatter your faith in the stuttering device.

wtf is a stuttering device?
A machine that stutters for you?
I can see how that might be useful alright: you could walk it around town on a leash while people dissed it, while never noticing you at all as you went on to fulfil a promising career at some highly paid/rewarding job and had a long succession of stunning gfs (or bfs) that never even suspected anything.
No wonder he has faith in it.

[happy7117]

wtf is a stuttering device?
A machine that stutters for you?
I can see how that might be useful alright: you could walk it around town on a leash while people dissed it, while never noticing you at all as you went on to fulfil a promising career at some highly paid/rewarding job and had a long succession of stunning gfs (or bfs) that never even suspected anything.
No wonder he has faith in it.

You have never heard of Speecheasy, or Fluency Master??

If that's a joke about a device that stutters for you, I like it!

If it's not a joke, then a device helps a person speak easier with less dysfluency!

People are more likely to diss stuttering, than a device to help the stuttering.

Hey-if something helps someone, they should flaunt it.

People are more likely to mock out stuttering than a device to help stuttering!

Everyone enjoy your hard-working therapies that will never completely free you from stuttering--ya hear!

[happy7117]

After your brief vacation from the forum, you're still the same Happy. ;) Nothing will shatter your faith in the stuttering device.


A vacation from Steve!

"Paranoid" is always welcome in my "hood"!!

[happy7117]

wtf is a stuttering device

What does wtf mean??

[Violet]

What does wtf mean??

What The ! ;)

[nate]

What The ! ;)

thank u violet. :D

[Asif]

What does wtf mean??

Woe To Frogs.
A common phrase among forest-dwellers.
If there's a frog around, it can take the heat.
That's often a useful diversion.

When I came back on this forum, you were the target of everybody's abuse :)
Don't thank me - I like the challenge!

[chris2112]

Woe To Frogs.
A common phrase among forest-dwellers.
If there's a frog around, it can take the heat.
That's often a useful diversion.

When I came back on this forum, you were the target of everybody's abuse :)
Don't thank me - I like the challenge!

And thats why no one likes you. You are a sad, bored man.

[Asif]

And thats why no one likes you. You are a sad, bored man.

I realise that you need to be liked.
I no longer am driven by that need.

I like me. And that is all that's necessary.

[chris2112]

I realise that you need to be liked.
I no longer am driven by that need.

I like me. And that is all that's necessary.

OR your just being ignorant

[Asif]

OR your just being ignorant

Now that really is a stretch of the imagination.
Has your vocubulary dried up completely?
Think about what you meant to say, apply to me, instead of yourself, and try posting again.

[chris2112]

Now that really is a stretch of the imagination.
Has your vocubulary dried up completely?
Think about what you meant to say, apply to me, instead of yourself, and try posting again.

No I ment what I said, your being ignorant to whats really going on. You think you can justify what your doing but thats only because your being ignorant.

[Asif]

No I ment what I said, your being ignorant to whats really going on. You think you can justify what your doing but thats only because your being ignorant.

I am not sure I follow you. What - in your opinion - really is going on?

[Adrian]

It's true that many speech therapists don't know how to treat stuttering or have any experience in treating it. Especially if they don't specialize in stuttering treatment. But I don't know if this applies to most speech pathologists who specifically treat people with stuttering and not other speech related disorders. I bet many speech therapists that treat people with stuttering disorder know what they are doing, especially if they have experience. Speech therapy field you know isn't new and has passed the test of time. Over many decades speech therapy researchers through trial and error came up with techniques or speech rules that help a lot of if not most people with stuttering to control their stuttering if they are determined and are willing to put in a lot of work.

I have also had speech therapy through out much of my life and I have to disagree. Has it passed the test of time? I don't know about other disorders, but I don't think speech therapists have done much for stutterers. They seem to recycle through the same techniques every couple of decades. They create fluency in the clinic, but not much in the real world and then blame us for a lack of discipline in being unable to carry it over. At some point, I believe, stuttering will be treated as a medical problem and speech therapists will move away from treating stuttering.

I also was in two intensive speech programs. One was in Ohio and another in NYC at American Institute for Stuttering. I also read about it in my free time in order to be informed. If you want to know more about my life story and where I come from just pay a visit to my new blog... :D

Catherine Montgomery at AIS is one of the good ones. I have spoken to her and know alot about her program. Unfortunately, I believe she is an anomaly.

[agantx]

I have also had speech therapy through out much of my life and I have to disagree. Has it passed the test of time? I don't know about other disorders, but I don't think speech therapists have done much for stutterers. They seem to recycle through the same techniques every couple of decades. They create fluency in the clinic, but not much in the real world and then blame us for a lack of discipline in being unable to carry it over. At some point, I believe, stuttering will be treated as a medical problem and speech therapists will move away from treating stuttering.



Catherine Montgomery at AIS is one of the good ones. I have spoken to her and know alot about her program. Unfortunately, I believe she is an anomaly.

She is excellent. Not only does she focus on speech rules that transform our natural uncontrolled form of stuttering into easy and controlled form with a lot of hard work and determination, she also focuses on many ways that help us to overcome our negative feelings. This focus on negative feelings is very important. It helped me a lot and made me a lot more hopeful. You must never forget that there are many speech therapists like her out there that helped a lot of people control their stuttering and at the same time suppress their negative feelings in all situations. You just have to find them, continue to hope and not to lose faith. :)

It seems to me from what you said that speech therapy sadly had little impact on your life for some reason at the end and because of this you lost faith in it. Sometimes speech therapy just doesn’t work for many reasons… :(

There have been scientific studies that measured the success rate of speech therapy. It has been scientifically proven that speech therapy can help most people make their stuttering easier and much more manageable as long as they are willing to work hard on their speech, even if they continue to stutter after speech therapy. For example, speech therapy helped many people with mild and moderate stuttering to get it completely under control. This means by mastering the rules they can speak fluently in all situations for long periods of time. Unfortunately this isn’t often true for people who have severe stuttering. For them with a lot of hard work it’s still possible to speak almost fluently and with complete confidence in their speaking abilities in all situations, not only in a speech clinic setting. Despite all the success of speech therapy in reducing stuttering for most people and making their negative feelings a lot less, it fails to help a very small minority of people who stutter in terms of making their stuttering less severe. But even for them speech therapy can help reduce their negative feelings.

We also have to remember that speech therapy is not a cure. The goal of speech therapy is not to completely stop stuttering and turn us into 100% fluent speakers but instead to enable us to completely overcome our negative feelings, successfully communicate easily in all situations and normally function in life. In these terms speech therapy can help most people get free from their stuttering prison even if they continue to stutter once in a while no matter how severe their natural stuttering is. In this instance people just don’t care if they continue to have a few easy manageable blocks. Because of all this and the fact that it’s proven scientifically that speech therapy works, it’s agreed among speech pathologists and scientists in the speech field that speech therapy can’t be replaced by devices like the Speech Easy or medicines. These devices and medicines can only complement speech therapy and not replace it at this time.

Despite all of this this people who stutter are free not to choose it if they don’t want to. Many people who stutter overcame stuttering and negative feelings that come with it without any help from speech therapy. They just found their own ways through trial and error that helped them to function in life like everyone else and be very successful. :D

I'm curious that since speech therapy didn't help you very much, did you manage to ovecome your stuttering and all of the negative feelings by yourself or are still being dominated by it? If yes what helped you to finally free yourself?

PS: Speech therapy is not only useful to treat stuttering. It can also reduce accents in normal fluent people. This is all possible because of our extreme flexibility of our brains. Our brains can adapt in many situations. For example people often recover from comas, strokes and brain damage with a lot of hard work. In these instances a part of the brain learns to perform a job that was originally performed by a different damaged part of the brain. That’s why our speech is very modifiable with a lot of hard work since the source of speech is in our brain.

[Adrian]

There have been scientific studies that measured the success rate of speech therapy. It has been scientifically proven that speech therapy can help most people make their stuttering easier and much more manageable as long as they are willing to work hard on their speech, even if they continue to stutter after speech therapy.

I don't know of any such studies and I thought I was pretty up on this stuff. Can you site an example? It seems this would be very difficult to measure in any truly scientific way. Also, I don't believe there is any evidence speech therapy creates completes fluency even for mild stutterers. Sounds more like SLP propaganda to me. :D

The goal of speech therapy is not to completely stop stuttering and turn us into 100% fluent speakers but instead to enable us to completely overcome our negative feelings, successfully communicate easily in all situations and normally function in life. In these terms speech therapy can help most people get free from their stuttering prison even if they continue to stutter once in a while no matter how severe their natural stuttering is. In this instance people just don’t care if they continue to have a few easy manageable blocks.

For some speech therapists what you say is true. But many (or most) speech therapists are still part of the "fluency shaping" school and believe in either complete fluency or failure. This approach is still taught in many major universities. I remember talking with Catherine Montgomery about this many years ago and she agrees that "fluency shaping" is still very popular in the SLP .

Yes many speech therapists will take the role of counselor and help people with their "negative feelings," but this is not true speech therapy, it is counseling. If we need moral support, support groups are much cheaper!

I'm curious that since speech therapy didn't help you very much, did you manage to ovecome your stuttering and all of the negative feelings by yourself or are still being dominated by it? If yes what helped you to finally free yourself?

Yes I have. I did pick up some things from my many therapists, but for the most part I have done it on my own and with the help of other stutterers. Being involved in the NSA and the McGuire program has been a big help.

Anyway, I am not trying to give you a hard time, just challenge a view that I believe to be wrong. Have a happy new year!

[Adrian]

Yes I have.

I answered that incorrectly. I definatley still stutter, but I have overcome the negative feelings that come with it.

[eva]

Yes many speech therapists will take the role of counselor and help people with their "negative feelings," but this is not true speech therapy, it is counseling. If we need moral support, support groups are much cheaper!

I'm happy that my new speech therapist didn't take that role. She told me right away she is a speech therapist, not a psychologist, and adviced me to see also a psychologist to discuss the psychological aspects of stuttering if I want to. And as a speech therapist, she helps me with techniques and thinks stuttering is a neurological condition.

I actually tried to get a psychologist, but it turned out to be impossible... I can't get one because I'm not suicidal, and the doctor also thought stuttering is a neurological condition and psychotherapy won't help me with that. I was told that first I should be depressed and get a doctor to prescribe me some antidepressant drugs, and if the drugs don't cure the depression, I will have the chance to see a psychologist after few months on a waiting list.
Of course I'm not going to let my stutter depress me, so I gave up that plan and will be joining a therapy group in a couple of months.

[Adrian]

I'm happy that my new speech therapist didn't take that role. She told me right away she is a speech therapist, not a psychologist, and adviced me to see also a psychologist to discuss the psychological aspects of stuttering if I want to. And as a speech therapist, she helps me with techniques and thinks stuttering is a neurological condition.


I have mixed feelings about speech therapists acting as counselors. On one hand, for some clients, the psychological factors must be dealt with before true speech therapy can be of any use. The fact is that years of stuttering will take a psychological toll on most stutterers. Ignoring this fact is what makes many speech therapists ineffective in the treatment of stuttering. But, on the other hand, speech therapists are trained to deal with the mechanics of speech and are, in most cases, not trained to be counselors. Those that do act as counselors are working outside of their area of expertise.

I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is.

[emily445455]

In my undergrad experience studying Speech Therapy, we are not *trained* to be counselours....but that aspect of therapy is talked about. Profs just mention sometimes that people with speech problems are people first, and sometimes have psychiological problems due to their speech disorder....and if they do that will affect how we treat the patients.

[Violet]

I'm happy that my new speech therapist didn't take that role. She told me right away she is a speech therapist, not a psychologist, and adviced me to see also a psychologist to discuss the psychological aspects of stuttering if I want to. And as a speech therapist, she helps me with techniques and thinks stuttering is a neurological condition.

I actually tried to get a psychologist, but it turned out to be impossible... I can't get one because I'm not suicidal, and the doctor also thought stuttering is a neurological condition and psychotherapy won't help me with that. I was told that first I should be depressed and get a doctor to prescribe me some antidepressant drugs, and if the drugs don't cure the depression, I will have the chance to see a psychologist after few months on a waiting list.
Of course I'm not going to let my stutter depress me, so I gave up that plan and will be joining a therapy group in a couple of months.

I saw a psychologist for a while because i was depressed... but i stopped going after a while because she didnt understand.. and how could she? she doesnt stutter.. i tell her my worries and what advice could she possibly offer that would solve my problems and or make me feel better?... she just sort of went all awkward and tried to change the topic to areas that she was more experienced in.. and she wouldnt put me on anti depressents because apparently they can sometimes make your stutter worse which would just make me feel worse...
Lol and i also stopped going because she was bound by law to tell my parents anything that i said that was life threatening.. so i didnt go in case i let something slip..
They should train speech therpists to be psycholgoists as well who actually understand.

[Adrian]

I saw a psychologist for a while because i was depressed... but i stopped going after a while because she didnt understand.. and how could she? she doesnt stutter.. i tell her my worries and what advice could she possibly offer that would solve my problems and or make me feel better?... she just sort of went all awkward and tried to change the topic to areas that she was more experienced in.. and she wouldnt put me on anti depressents because apparently they can sometimes make your stutter worse which would just make me feel worse...
Lol and i also stopped going because she was bound by law to tell my parents anything that i said that was life threatening.. so i didnt go in case i let something slip..
They should train speech therpists to be psycholgoists as well who actually understand.

I honestly believe a speech therapist will have a very difficult time effectively treating stuttering unless they stutter themselves. This is such a complex problem from a psychological standpoint that even psychologists don't know how to deal with it. To expect a fluent speech therapist to understand this is really not even fair.

I like to see stutterers enter the speech pathology field for this very reason. Unfortunately there are some in the speech pathology industry who don't believe we belong there. Check out this article...

http://www.reitzes.com/advance.html

[zinnia11]

My son just completed a 2 week intensive program in Eastern Virginia called the Precision Speech Therapy Program led by Dr. Ross Barrett. It has changed his life. Prior to that he was in speech therapy for 1/2 hour per week at school which did absolutely nothing for him except to reenforce how bad he felt about his stuttering.

He will always have to work at remembering what he was taught at the 2 week program for the rest of his life. But now he has the tools and resources to do that.

[Count]

I saw a psychologist for a while because i was depressed... but i stopped going after a while because she didnt understand.. and how could she? she doesnt stutter.. i tell her my worries and what advice could she possibly offer that would solve my problems and or make me feel better?...


I once read a book by Sigmund Freud dealing with oneiromancy (dream interpretation). According to Freud stuttering is a psychological issue along with dyslexia, social anxiety and agoraphobia. So, people who stutter should attend Freud's famous couch therapy. To many stutterers this sound like a contradiction because they cannot speak fluently and this therapy requires a lot of speaking. But I believe every stutterer will reach a level of fluency in such a session (given that the psychoanalyst is experienced). The oneiromancy will reveal the accidents that have worsened our stuttering over the years and find solutions. In the end you will find out, according to Freud's analysis of the mind, that boys desire their mother and girls lust for their father. I think solving this conflict could reduce stuttering vehemently.

Another useful therapy could be hypnosis. But that's a different story.

[Adrian]

In the end you will find out, according to Freud's analysis of the mind, that boys desire their mother and girls lust for their father. I think solving this conflict could reduce stuttering vehemently.


That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. It sounds like something Asif would have come up with. Let's keep in mind Freud was alive over a hundred years ago and his views are not held in very high esteem by today's psychology .

[emily445455]

Yea, Freud was a nut :D

[nate]

Yea, Freud was a nut :D

No
he was not a nut.
he was fruity...banana's perhaps?
Nate

[Count]

That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. It sounds like something Asif would have come up with. Let's keep in mind Freud was alive over a hundred years ago and his views are not held in very high esteem by today's psychology .


Hmmmm........., Freud is a very bipolar issue. Most of his ideas and theories have been out-dated by now, but please don't turn down his influence on modern psychology.
It's not the ultimate solution of course. I just came up with psychoanalysis because Violet wrote about unsuccessful therapy sessions and thought that this could help.
Freud thought that inner conflicts are the reason for our suffering and worsen our problems. Stuttering is probably caused by several inner conflicts and causes even more. I don't know for sure, it's just my take.
I, for example, have lots of unsolved inner conflicts. I know that they influence my stuttering. :mad:

[Adrian]

Hmmmm........., Freud is a very bipolar issue. Most of his ideas and theories have been out-dated by now, but please don't turn down his influence on modern psychology.
It's not the ultimate solution of course. I just came up with psychoanalysis because Violet wrote about unsuccessful therapy sessions and thought that this could help.
Freud thought that inner conflicts are the reason for our suffering and worsen our problems. Stuttering is probably caused by several inner conflicts and causes even more. I don't know for sure, it's just my take.
I, for example, have lots of unsolved inner conflicts. I know that they influence my stuttering. :mad:

Freud was the father of modern psychology and, yes, he deserves credit for that. But Freudian psychology has been basically discredited in today's world. Do you really think the idea that we lust after our parents has even a little to do with stuttering? I sure hope not.

Modern research has shown stuttering is a neurological problem and not caused by inner conflict. Everyone has inner conflicts, it is part of the human condition. But only a tiny percentage of the population stutters. Growing into adulthood with a stuttering problem is tough and yes inner conflicts can certainly arise. But I feel very strongly they are not the root cause of this issue.

[Violet]

I once read a book by Sigmund Freud dealing with oneiromancy (dream interpretation). According to Freud stuttering is a psychological issue along with dyslexia, social anxiety and agoraphobia. So, people who stutter should attend Freud's famous couch therapy. To many stutterers this sound like a contradiction because they cannot speak fluently and this therapy requires a lot of speaking. But I believe every stutterer will reach a level of fluency in such a session (given that the psychoanalyst is experienced). The oneiromancy will reveal the accidents that have worsened our stuttering over the years and find solutions. In the end you will find out, according to Freud's analysis of the mind, that boys desire their mother and girls lust for their father. I think solving this conflict could reduce stuttering vehemently.

Another useful therapy could be hypnosis. But that's a different story.

wow. actually that is so true.. for my stutter at least i think. I have never been close to my father for starts.. lust is definantly the wrong word though. *twitch* and i suppose i do have many 'unsolved inner conflicts' as well..
Interesting foundation of the cause of stuttering though..
is agoraphobia the phobia of open spaces? :confused:

[Count]

is agoraphobia the phobia of open spaces? :confused:

Yes. I guess I have a form of agoraphobia. Just a little one.

[Count]

Freud was the father of modern psychology and, yes, he deserves credit for that. But Freudian psychology has been basically discredited in today's world. Do you really think the idea that we lust after our parents has even a little to do with stuttering? I sure hope not.

It's not a ual lust that we should feel for our parents. It's just obvious that boys want to be loved by their mothers and girls by their fathers. Don't you think so?
I've always had a much better relationship to my mother than to my father. Honestly I guess I've even been scared by my father when I was a kid.


Modern research has shown stuttering is a neurological problem and not caused by inner conflict. Everyone has inner conflicts, it is part of the human condition. But only a tiny percentage of the population stutters. Growing into adulthood with a stuttering problem is tough and yes inner conflicts can certainly arise. But I feel very strongly they are not the root cause of this issue.

If it would be a neurological issue, then we all should go to neurologists to treat the stuttering. Yet we seek for help at speech therapists. :confused:

I also disagree that it's neurological because I and many others have lots of times when they talk fluently. Whereas neurological damaged people such as paraplegics can't just stand up from their wheel chair and walk.

[Adrian]

It's not a ual lust that we should feel for our parents. It's just obvious that boys want to be loved by their mothers and girls by their fathers. Don't you think so?
I've always had a much better relationship to my mother than to my father. Honestly I guess I've even been scared by my father when I was a kid.

Everyone has issues from there childhood and yet only a small percentage of us stutter. I would bet many people on this group have had ideal childhoods and still stutter. Sure having issues with your parents would make stuttering more difficult, but that is another issue.

If it would be a neurological issue, then we all should go to neurologists to treat the stuttering. Yet we seek for help at speech therapists. :confused:

Perhaps this is why speech therapists have such a lousy track record in the treatment of stuttering. :p

Seriously though, a paraplegic would still work with a physical therapist. Why would speech be any different.

I also disagree that it's neurological because I and many others have lots of times when they talk fluently. Whereas neurological damaged people such as paraplegics can't just stand up from their wheel chair and walk.

Well other neurological conditions are intermitant and exacerbated by stress. Tourette's and Parkinson's are two example.

[Silent]

If it would be a neurological issue, then we all should go to neurologists to treat the stuttering. Yet we seek for help at speech therapists. :confused:
That would only make sense if neurologists knew how to treat it. But they don't.

We seek help with speech therapists because they treat stuttering successfully. Their success rate is maybe 10% or so, but it's still better than nothing...

[nate]

That would only make sense if neurologists knew how to treat it. But they don't.

We seek help with speech therapists because they treat stuttering successfully. Their success rate is maybe 10% or so, but it's still better than nothing...

well whoopee...FYI most placebo effects can elicit a 10%reaction easily. thats not a good quota.
Nate

[agantx]

I don't know of any such studies and I thought I was pretty up on this stuff. Can you site an example? It seems this would be very difficult to measure in any truly scientific way. Also, I don't believe there is any evidence speech therapy creates completes fluency even for mild stutterers. Sounds more like SLP propaganda to me. :D

Unfortunately at this time I can’t provide a good source for such studies. The reason is that I heard it from my speech therapist that has a lot of experience and helped a lot of people overcome their stuttering completely in addition to helping them get rid of their negative feelings like low self esteem, lack of confidence, nervousness, feeling weak or inferior, sensitivity to stuttering like wanting to hide it from all new people, etc. To find out more about these studies, I suggest you do more research. I’ll also do more research on my own too and post any evidence and sources.

You’re right that it might be difficult to measure the success rate of speech therapy scientifically but not impossible if proper measures are taken. Also the goal of speech therapy isn’t to create complete fluency all the time. This would mean a person who stutters can become a 100% fluent speaker. In other words speech therapy would be a cure to stuttering and we know it isn’t. Even for people with mild stuttering that managed to completely get their stuttering under control in all situations, if they don’t continue to practice or use their speech rules or techniques, stuttering will return. In other words they will have a relapse of their natural mild stuttering no matter how mild it is. In order to get their mild stuttering under control again they would have to repeat speech therapy once again. This “stuttering law” obviously also applies to people with moderate and severe stuttering. I’m sure you likely experienced it yourself. I know I have…


For some speech therapists what you say is true. But many (or most) speech therapists are still part of the "fluency shaping" school and believe in either complete fluency or failure. This approach is still taught in many major universities. I remember talking with Catherine Montgomery about this many years ago and she agrees that "fluency shaping" is still very popular in the SLP .

When I was at AIS speech intensive program, I learned about fluency shaping. I don’t believe in it because it just teaches people to talk in a fake, artificial and unnatural way. That’s why I don’t support it and believe that even if it helps make stuttering better, it most likely is temporary. Instead I support stuttering modification. That’s what Charles Van Riper and Wendell Johnson who both had severe stuttering came up with many decades ago while working independently (perhaps you should read about their stories and how they vigorously tested their techniques and speech rules they came up with to make sure they will work. They tested them first on themselves and then on thousands of their clients over many decades). They don’t try to change our speech completely or prevent stuttering completely. Their goal was to change stuttering and make it much easier and manageable. That’s much better than fluency shaping that teaches to talk in a completely different way.

I also don’t know how popular fluency shaping is in the speech pathology field. I believe that most likely most speech therapists don’t use it to treat people who stutter. But there are probably many who do.


Yes many speech therapists will take the role of counselor and help people with their "negative feelings," but this is not true speech therapy, it is counseling. If we need moral support, support groups are much cheaper!

In the beginning, most speech therapists only focused on the speech rules or techniques to modify stuttering and get it completely under control. They had big success when most of their clients with hard work became fluent. But this fluency didn’t last and most clients had a relapse of their natural stuttering. This is because most speech therapists were ignoring or weren’t dealing with the negative feelings that their clients had like the urge to hide stuttering and avoid talking to new people, feeling shameful or sorry every time they had a block, lack of confidence in themselves, low self esteem, etc. The reason for this is that most of them thought negative feelings would go away by themselves once their clients became fluent. Instead their clients continued their old patterns of not talking to new people, keeping their negative feelings alive and eventually lost all the progress they had made in terms of controlling stuttering and being more fluent. This all changed when speech therapy programs began to focus also on negative feelings and help people who stutter to overcome them. With this people who stutter began to be prepared for the outside world when speech therapy programs had ended. They had not only tools to control their stuttering but many other tools and ways to attack their negative feelings directly and defeat them with time. Only after speech therapists began to focus on stuttering and negative feelings together, speech therapy became truly effective.

Despite all this success, the speech therapy field recently is beginning to change once again. More and more speech therapists are focusing majority of the time on only negative feelings and not on the rules or techniques that help to get stuttering under control. Instead of helping their clients to control and manage their stuttering in addition to teaching them how to control and defeat their negative feelings, they teach their clients only how to attack their negative feelings and not how to get their stuttering under control. They urge them to just accept stuttering the way it is and live with it and not try to make it less severe. This is also unfortunately happening in many stuttering support groups. I think this is all wrong because focusing on making stuttering better is also very important. (Catherine Montgomery told me that in the beginning her program only focused on the speech rules and ways how to get stuttering under control. With time she saw that this simply didn’t work. That’s why with time her program also began to focus on ways to overcome negative feelings. Because of this all her clients are forced to talk to new people while they are in the program in addition to learning how to control and manage their stuttering.)


Yes I have. I did pick up some things from my many therapists, but for the most part I have done it on my own and with the help of other stutterers. Being involved in the NSA and the McGuire program has been a big help.

That's great. Keep up the good work and don't ever let stuttering control your life and make all the decisions for you again! :)

Tell us more about the McGuire program. I'm sure many of us will benefit from your story and from learning how it works...

Anyway, I am not trying to give you a hard time, just challenge a view that I believe to be wrong. Have a happy new year!

Same here. I hope I’m also challenging you to think outside the box and giving you new faith in at least speech rules and techniques if not speech therapy as a whole... ;)

[happy7117]

Woe To Frogs.
A common phrase among forest-dwellers.
If there's a frog around, it can take the heat.
That's often a useful diversion.

When I came back on this forum, you were the target of everybody's abuse :)
Don't thank me - I like the challenge!

If people have issues with me, it's their problem, not mine.:D

[agantx]

I'm happy that my new speech therapist didn't take that role. She told me right away she is a speech therapist, not a psychologist, and adviced me to see also a psychologist to discuss the psychological aspects of stuttering if I want to. And as a speech therapist, she helps me with techniques and thinks stuttering is a neurological condition.

That's too bad your speech therapist did it. The past proved that if a speech therapist will only focus on how to control stuttering and not on negative feelings, speech therapy simply will not work. In fact when done in this way, speech therapy will never work. That's why today most speech therapists and intensive speech programs also focus on overcoming negative feelings in addition to teaching how to get stuttering under control. What they do is first teach people how to control their stuttering. Then they focus on ways how to overcome negative feelings.

I actually tried to get a psychologist, but it turned out to be impossible... I can't get one because I'm not suicidal, and the doctor also thought stuttering is a neurological condition and psychotherapy won't help me with that. I was told that first I should be depressed and get a doctor to prescribe me some antidepressant drugs, and if the drugs don't cure the depression, I will have the chance to see a psychologist after few months on a waiting list.
Of course I'm not going to let my stutter depress me, so I gave up that plan and will be joining a therapy group in a couple of months.

They are right. Stuttering is a brain based neurological disorder. But it doesn't mean that you shouldn't see a psychologist too. If you want to see one for whatever reason, you should be free to be able to at any time. In your situation I also see one of the drawbacks of socialism. That's not being able to choose the doctors/psychologists you want and spending months on a waiting list just to see one. That's why capitalism is better than socialism and especially communism which is an extreme form of socialism... :rolleyes:

Joining a support group is a great idea! Go for it! :cool:

[agantx]

I have mixed feelings about speech therapists acting as counselors. On one hand, for some clients, the psychological factors must be dealt with before true speech therapy can be of any use. The fact is that years of stuttering will take a psychological toll on most stutterers. Ignoring this fact is what makes many speech therapists ineffective in the treatment of stuttering. But, on the other hand, speech therapists are trained to deal with the mechanics of speech and are, in most cases, not trained to be counselors. Those that do act as counselors are working outside of their area of expertise.

I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is.

It's right that most speech therapists are not psychologists. But we must not forget that speech therapy students go over negative feelings and learn about them in the classroom. We must also not forget that treating negative feelings that most stutterers have is much simpler than other much more complex psychological problems such as mental illness and depression. That's why in most cases a speech therapist can at least a little help a person who stutters make his negative feelings smaller with enough time, determination and hard work on the part of a stutterer. :)

We also have to remember almost every person who stutters (even very mild stutterers) has at least some negative feelings like shyness, low self esteem, embarrassment, shame, etc that are associated with stuttering. That’s why for most people who stutter, the psychological factors and negative feelings must be dealt with in order for any speech therapy to be truly effective and be of any use. Without dealing with negative feelings, speech therapy unfortunately is completely ineffective for most people who stutter. :(

[agantx]

I saw a psychologist for a while because i was depressed... but i stopped going after a while because she didnt understand.. and how could she? she doesnt stutter.. i tell her my worries and what advice could she possibly offer that would solve my problems and or make me feel better?... she just sort of went all awkward and tried to change the topic to areas that she was more experienced in.. and she wouldnt put me on anti depressents because apparently they can sometimes make your stutter worse which would just make me feel worse...

That's the major problem in trying to deal with trained psychologists when trying to overcome negative feelings that are due to stuttering. It's because an average psychologist simply doesn't know what stuttering is or what to do to overcome it and how to deal with negative feelings that it brings. Only a speech therapist knows this, especially the one who has experience. That's why speech therapists have no choice but to also help their clients to overcome their negative feelings and in a way act like miniature psychologists. Fortunately in most cases, negative feelings are simple and not complex like depression or other mental illnesses. That's why it's often not that hard for most speech pathologists to help most of their clients to get rid of all of their negative feelings while at the same time teaching them how to get their stuttering under control. :)

[Adrian]

Tell us more about the McGuire program. I'm sure many of us will benefit from your story and from learning how it works...

Okay, we are going to have to agree to disagree on the effectiveness of speech therapy. I would still like to see an example of the studies you mention though. :D

Anyway, McGuire has been discussed alot in the past so I won't go into too much detail. Google it or search the archives if you would like to learn more. It is not a cure, but it is far superior to any traditional therapies I have done. It is a self help group run by people who themselves stutter. The program teaches a breathing technique but also assertiveness training, voice projection, public speaking, and deals with the psychological baggage from dealing with a lifetime of stuttering.

I don't want to suggest everyone go out and join the program. If you read the archives you will see mixed reviews. But it is something to consider for anyone who wants to work on their speech.

[agantx]

I once read a book by Sigmund Freud dealing with oneiromancy (dream interpretation). According to Freud stuttering is a psychological issue along with dyslexia, social anxiety and agoraphobia. So, people who stutter should attend Freud's famous couch therapy. To many stutterers this sound like a contradiction because they cannot speak fluently and this therapy requires a lot of speaking. But I believe every stutterer will reach a level of fluency in such a session (given that the psychoanalyst is experienced). The oneiromancy will reveal the accidents that have worsened our stuttering over the years and find solutions. In the end you will find out, according to Freud's analysis of the mind, that boys desire their mother and girls lust for their father. I think solving this conflict could reduce stuttering vehemently.

Another useful therapy could be hypnosis. But that's a different story.

Sigmund Freud's work and his ideas are outdated. Since his time we have made a lot of progress in many fields including psychology itself.

Since stuttering is brain based neurological disorder, psychotherapy won't help. Hypnosis if it will have any affect at all will most likely be temporary. In order to find a true cure for stuttering disorder, we must start in the brain itself. We must find out what goes wrong in the brains of people who stutter when they think, talk and silently read. Only then it might be possible with a lot more advanced technology like nanotechnology/nanomedicine to modify our brains or fix any problems our brains have in them that the brains of normal fluent people don’t have. Because of this only then we will have a true cure for stuttering. I firmly believe that day is coming and will be here in the near future. :D

[agantx]

Stuttering is probably caused by several inner conflicts and causes even more. I don't know for sure, it's just my take.
I, for example, have lots of unsolved inner conflicts. I know that they influence my stuttering. :mad:

"Stuttering is probably caused by several inner conflicts and causes even more." :eek:

Stuttering is a brain based neurological disorder. It's not psychological. Yes it's true that stress, nervousness, unsolved inner conflicts do make stuttering worse but they are not the cause of stuttering. Instead the problem or the true cause of stuttering lies in our brains and not in our nervousness, stress, lack of confidence, shame, embarrassment, low self esteem and especially our inner conflicts... :)

[Adrian]

This is an interesting artlicle on the sad state of stuttering therapy today. It is written by a highly respected speech pathologist. I thought it might be relevant to this discussion.

http://www.mnsu.edu/comdis/isad4/papers/quesal3.html

[agantx]

Has it passed the test of time? I don't know about other disorders, but I don't think speech therapists have done much for stutterers. They seem to recycle through the same techniques every couple of decades. They create fluency in the clinic, but not much in the real world and then blame us for a lack of discipline in being unable to carry it over. At some point, I believe, stuttering will be treated as a medical problem and speech therapists will move away from treating stuttering.

I’ve met a lot of people that were treated by my speech therapist and they spoke completely fluently. I’ve seen firsthand what speech therapy, determination and hard work can do to stuttering in terms of getting stuttering completely under control no matter how severe it is. For example I once saw a person with very severe natural stuttering who was treated by my speech therapist speak 100% fluently without any blocks in front of a speech class just because he was using the rules that he learned. I saw many other people become completely or almost completely fluent that were also treated by my speech therapist. If you don’t believe me then read about the life stories of Charles Van Riper and Wendell Johnson. They both had severe stuttering and started the speech therapy field decades ago. Both of them succeeded in controlling their natural severe stuttering to such a degree that it was mild to nonexistent by using the speech rules/techniques they invented and tested first on themselves. Both of them even were able to talk completely fluently for weeks at a time. There are countless other examples in which people got their stuttering completely under control like Tiger Woods, King George IV of England who had severe stuttering and our next vice president Joe Biden.

The examples and stories about people who managed to get their stuttering under control together with their negative feelings thanks to speech therapy or practicing the speech rules/techniques alone in their spare time without going to a speech therapist are so many that it just doesn’t make sense to call them all exceptions to the rule or anomalies. Statistically speaking their number is just too huge to try to simply dismiss them or ignore them. The most amazing and inspiring stories are about people with severe and very severe stuttering who against all odds managed to get their stuttering under control and free themselves thanks to learning how to use speech rules or techniques. In other words if it’s possible to do it for a person with very severe or severe stuttering, then it’s possible for anyone to do it given enough determination, time and hard work.

Because of such spectacular success of speech therapy, speech therapists will continue to treat stuttering for as long as the cure isn’t found. When scientists finally will find a cure (I believe it’ll be in the near future thanks to continued advancement of nanotechnology/nanomedicine), there will be no need for speech therapists to continue to treat stuttering because it’ll be cured by doctors. Only then speech therapists will stop treating stuttering and not before…

[Adrian]

It is very easy to get someone to speak fluently in controlled situations. The real test is can they do so long term and in ANY situation. I have been through many group speech therapies and I have never seen anyone become 100% fluent in all situations. Yes people have improved and that is great, but they still stuttered. Also, your examples aren't relevant; Tiger Woods grew out of stuttering as a small child, Joe Biden grew out of it as a teenager, and King George stuttered until he died.

You say, speaking about those who have overcome stuttering, "statistically speaking their number is just too huge to try to simply dismiss them or ignore them." Where is this evidence? I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but you aren't backing up your cls other then by telling us this is what your speech therapist told you. I have known hundreds of stutterers through my involvement in the stuttering and I can't think of anyone who is completely stutter free after many different types of therapies. There may be some, but I really don't believe it is more then a tiny percentage.

I am not trying to sound harsh, it is just that your experience seems so vastly different from mine. I am also not saying speech therapy is a waste of time. A good speech therapist can certainly be helpful. But I do think, with some exceptions, that modern stuttering therapy is in sad shape.

[Adrian]

Stuttering is a brain based neurological disorder. It's not psychological. Yes it's true that stress, nervousness, unsolved inner conflicts do make stuttering worse but they are not the cause of stuttering. Instead the problem or the true cause of stuttering lies in our brains and not in our nervousness, stress, lack of confidence, shame, embarrassment, low self esteem and especially our inner conflicts... :)

On this issue I completely agree. :D Anyway, I don't want to get into a stupid back and forth discussion. As I said before, we will need to agree to disagree.

[agantx]

I honestly believe a speech therapist will have a very difficult time effectively treating stuttering unless they stutter themselves. This is such a complex problem from a psychological standpoint that even psychologists don't know how to deal with it. To expect a fluent speech therapist to understand this is really not even fair.

I like to see stutterers enter the speech pathology field for this very reason. Unfortunately there are some in the speech pathology industry who don't believe we belong there. Check out this article...

http://www.reitzes.com/advance.html

This is a very good post. I agree that it's better if a SLP stutters too because he will understand much better. I'm also happy that NYU was defeated after a yearlong hard battle. We should always fight for our rights because what NYU did was discrimination and this is very wrong. :mad:

[agantx]

It is a self help group run by people who themselves stutter. The program teaches a breathing technique but also assertiveness training, voice projection, public speaking, and deals with the psychological baggage from dealing with a lifetime of stuttering.

I thought this program was an intensive speech program like the program at American Institute for Stuttering run by people who stutter and not a self help group...

[Adrian]

I thought this program was an intensive speech program like the program at American Institute for Stuttering run by people who stutter and not a self help group...

It is really both. It starts out as a four day intensive course taught by people who stutter. It then turns into a support program where you have access to hundreds of graduates. Some graduates choose to become "coaches" and instructors by attending trainings and passing tests. Some parts of the world have weekly support groups. A graduate can also attend further intensive trainings for $20 a day after paying the initial lifetime membership fee, so most people will attend several of the four day courses.

[TenaciousD]

I thought this program was an intensive speech program like the program at American Institute for Stuttering run by people who stutter and not a self help group...

I attended a Mcguire program back in the spring of '07.............. its deffinately an intensive program ---but in comparison to "AIS"...... its not near as long.....its only a 3 day intensive course..... but the self help group (or--- maybe I'd call it a phone list -of an interactive stuttering / who are all former graduates ) seems to really help alot of the mcguire graduates.......... I didn't stick with this program.......cause it didn't seem to help me much.

[TenaciousD]

It is really both. It starts out as a four day intensive course taught by people who stutter. It then turns into a support program where you have access to hundreds of graduates. Some graduates choose to become "coaches" and instructors by attending trainings and passing tests. Some parts of the world have weekly support groups. A graduate can also attend further intensive trainings for $20 a day after paying the initial lifetime membership fee, so most people will attend several of the four day courses.

Hey adrian.........you gave a way better description of the program here:) ................. I wouldnt of responded if your comment had already been posted when I started typing lol

[Adrian]

I attended a Mcguire program back in the spring of '07.............. its deffinately an intensive program ---but in comparison to "AIS"...... its not near as long.....its only a 3 day intensive course..... but the self help group (or--- maybe I'd call it a phone list -of an interactive stuttering / who are all former graduates ) seems to really help alot of the mcguire graduates.......... I didn't stick with this program.......cause it didn't seem to help me much.

Were you at a Washington D.C. course? I think I attended in spring of 07.

[agantx]

This is an interesting artlicle on the sad state of stuttering therapy today. It is written by a highly respected speech pathologist. I thought it might be relevant to this discussion.

http://www.mnsu.edu/comdis/isad4/papers/quesal3.html

Indeed this is a very interesting and very important article. If the result will be the eventual death of fluency disorders in the SLP profession, then fewer and fewer speech therapists will learn about stuttering disorder and know how to treat it. That would with enough time mean that majority of speech therapists won't be able to treat stuttering since they won't be qualified to do that or adequately prepared to do that. That’s why something has to be done to stop this trend. I hope at least some actions already have been made to try to stop this worrying trend since this paper was published in 2001. :(

I noticed that this article was published in 2001 and today is 2009 Adrian. Can you do more research on this topic and provide us an update on the situation? That would be really helpful.

[agantx]

If you don’t believe me then read about the life stories of Charles Van Riper and Wendell Johnson. They both had severe stuttering and started the speech therapy field decades ago. Both of them succeeded in controlling their natural severe stuttering to such a degree that it was mild to nonexistent by using the speech rules/techniques they invented and tested first on themselves. Both of them even were able to talk completely fluently for weeks at a time. There are countless other examples in which people got their stuttering completely under control like Tiger Woods, King George IVof England who had severe stuttering and our next vice president Joe Biden.

I have made a mistake in my previous post that needs to be corrected. The British king that I was referring to wasn’t King George IV. Instead it was King George VI. He had severe or very severe stuttering. But it didn’t prevent him from getting it under control and becoming king of Great Britain. Together with other men who stuttered like the British Prime Minister of United Kingdom Winston Churchill and the leader of the British Parliament they led Great Britain during WWII to victory over Hitler and his Nazi Germany. Isn’t it amazing that during that very tough time people who stuttered saved England from Hitler with help from their allies? Before that no one would have expected for people who stutter to do such a brave and hard thing. In fact for many people who stutter and don’t stutter it would have seemed impossible! Yet they still did it no matter how hard it was!!! :)

Because of this, the story of King George IV is very interesting and inspiring along with the story of Winston Churchill. It gives hope for all of us who stutter that anything is possible if we put our mind to it. That’s why I encourage all of you to read more about King George IV and his story. To start here’s some links about his life.

http://archives.cbc.ca/on_this_day/12/25/

This is the link to one of his most famous speeches. He used them to give hope for his people. Despite of his severe or very severe stuttering, King George IV refused to record them. He always did them live! :D

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=King+George+VI%2C+Christmas+broadcasts&btnG=Google+Search

This is just a google search about King George IV to start you of. ;)

http://www.mnsu.edu/comdis/kuster/pioneers/davewilliams.html

I also encourage all of you to read about the stories of Wendell Johnson and Charles Van Riper. That’s why I provided a good link to their life stories. They had severe or very severe stuttering themselves and started or revolutionized the speech pathology field. They invented stuttering modification rules or techniques. They tested them on themselves first and then on thousands of their clients over many decades to make sure they would work. They were pioneers in speech pathology field and their stories give hope. I believe after reading about their stories you will be more hopeful that through stuttering modification you too will be able to control your stuttering with a lot of motivation, determination and hard work! Good luck to all of you in this effort! :cool:

[agantx]

I have made a mistake in my previous post that needs to be corrected. The British king that I was referring to wasn’t King George IV. Instead it was King George VI. He had severe or very severe stuttering. But it didn’t prevent him from getting it under control and becoming king of Great Britain. Together with other men who stuttered like the British Prime Minister of United Kingdom Winston Churchill and the leader of the British Parliament they led Great Britain during WWII to victory over Hitler and his Nazi Germany. Isn’t it amazing that during that very tough time people who stuttered saved England from Hitler with help from their allies? Before that no one would have expected for people who stutter to do such a brave and hard thing. In fact for many people who stutter and don’t stutter it would have seemed impossible! Yet they still did it no matter how hard it was!!! :)

Because of this, the story of King George IV is very interesting and inspiring along with the story of Winston Churchill. It gives hope for all of us who stutter that anything is possible if we put our mind to it. That’s why I encourage all of you to read more about King George IV and his story. To start here’s some links about his life.

http://archives.cbc.ca/on_this_day/12/25/

This is the link to one of his most famous speeches. He used them to give hope for his people. Despite of his severe or very severe stuttering, King George IV refused to record them. He always did them live! :D

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=King+George+VI%2C+Christmas+broadcasts&btnG=Google+Search

This is just a google search about King George IV to start you of.

http://www.mnsu.edu/comdis/kuster/pioneers/davewilliams.html

I also encourage all of you to read about the stories of Wendell Johnson and Charles Van Riper. That’s why I provided a good link to their life stories. They had severe or very severe stuttering themselves and started or revolutionized the speech pathology field. They invented stuttering modification rules or techniques. They tested them on themselves first and then on thousands of their clients over many decades to make sure they would work. They were pioneers in speech pathology field and their stories give hope. I believe after reading about their stories you will be more hopeful that through stuttering modification you too will be able to control your stuttering with a lot of motivation, determination and hard work! Good luck to all of you in this effort!

I noticed I made the same mistake a couple of times in this post. Again he's the King George VI and not King George IV. Don't forget that! :rolleyes:

[Adrian]

Agantx, notwithstanding our spirited discussion, I don't think our veiws are that far apart. I firmly believe stutterers can greatly improve their speech and learn to live happy normal lives. We only seem to differ slightly in the effectiveness of traditional therapy and the importance of fluency as a goal. Letting go of my goal of fluency has been one the most important steps in my life.

[emily445455]

No
he was not a nut.
he was fruity...banana's perhaps?
Nate

A nutty banana?? :D

[agantx]

It is really both. It starts out as a four day intensive course taught by people who stutter. It then turns into a support program where you have access to hundreds of graduates. Some graduates choose to become "coaches" and instructors by attending trainings and passing tests. Some parts of the world have weekly support groups. A graduate can also attend further intensive trainings for $20 a day after paying the initial lifetime membership fee, so most people will attend several of the four day courses.

I'm curious how large the lifetime membership fee is. Can you tell us how much it is? Thanks! :)

[Adrian]

I'm curious how large the lifetime membership fee is. Can you tell us how much it is? Thanks! :)

I paid $1000 for my first course in 2005, I believe it is $1200 now although I am not completely sure. A bit expensive for three days, but a bargain if you attend multiple courses as I have.

[agantx]

It is very easy to get someone to speak fluently in controlled situations. The real test is can they do so long term and in ANY situation.

I agree with your statement here. In the beginning when a person starts speech therapy, it's impossible for him to speak fluently even in a speech clinic. But by learning how to modify his stuttering by using the speech rules or techniques he learned and working hard, that person eventually becomes fluent in the speech clinic. The question is why it happens. The logical answer is that the rules Charles Van Riper came up with really work and make stuttering controllable. They successfully can transform a natural uncontrolled stuttering into a completely controllable form. Another reason why that person can talk fluently is because he doesn't have any of his negative feelings while he is talking in the speech clinic. That's very important because when negative feelings are absent, it's possible for a person to control his stuttering and speak fluently. Building on that, it should also be possible for that person to talk fluently in real life with new people and not only in the speech clinic if his negative feelings would be absent too in real life in addition to the speech clinic. Knowing this, in traditional stuttering modification speech therapy, speech therapists first teach people how to use the rules. After a person mastered his rules and becomes 100% confident that he will be able to talk without any blocks in the speech clinic, at home and the people he knows very well, only then his speech therapist begins dealing with his negative feelings. In the beginning it's very hard but not impossible to successfully transfer controlled fluency from a speech clinic to real life. But it's possible because negative feelings can be defeated with hard work. Once they are defeated after a lot of hard work in real life, talking in real life becomes the same as talking in the speech clinic. In other words in both situations at the end, negative feelings are not present. That's why it's very possible to get your stuttering under control and eventually speak fluently outside a speech clinic in all situations with a lot of practice and hard work.

As for if this can be done long term, it sure can be if a person will keep up with using his rules and keeping his negative feelings in check. The moment a person stops using his rules or practicing them while taking with people, his uncontrolled natural stuttering along with his negative feelings will slowly return and that person will lose all the progress that he has made very quickly. In other words he will have a complete relapse of his stuttering and will have to start from the very beginning again. This has happened to me many years ago...

I have been through many group speech therapies and I have never seen anyone become 100% fluent in all situations. Yes people have improved and that is great, but they still stuttered.

You seem to misunderstand me and continue to believe that I cl that speech therapy is a cure for stuttering when I said many times to the contrary. If indeed speech therapy could make us 100% fluent in virtually all situations for the rest of our lives, then it would have been a cure for stuttering which we all know isn't and currently is impossible. I also said many times before in this friendly debate between us that people sometimes continue to stutter at least a little bit in many situations after speech therapy, especially when their stuttering is moderate or severe. In other words having complete control over stuttering doesn't equal to being 100% fluent in all situations. Instead a person is often fluent in about 90%-100% of all situations depending on the circumstances and whether a person who stutters wants to use his rules in a situation. Even in the few situations when the stuttering randomly shows up, the disfluencies and blocks are often so easy and little that a person often doesn't notice it when talking to a person who stutters. In other words it's possible for many people with a lot of hard work to get their stuttering under control to such a degree with speech therapy that they can have only a few small and hardly noticeable blocks every month or every several months in all situations that real life throws at them even if they have moderate or severe stuttering. Having complete control over stuttering also means completely defeating all negative feelings. Only this makes it possible to speak fluently majority of the time in all situations and not just in a safe place like a speech clinic.

Also, your examples aren't relevant; Tiger Woods grew out of stuttering as a small child, Joe Biden grew out of it as a teenager, and King George stuttered until he died.

We know that 4% of children stutter. 3% of them naturally grow out of it as only small children and not teenagers or adults. 1% that continue to stutter into adulthood have chronic developmental stuttering that will most likely be with them for the rest of their lives. 3% of people that naturally grow out of their stuttering don't see themselves along with everyone else as people who stutter. They see themselves as normal fluent people who don't stutter. The world sees them in a completely same way. Because of this the mindset of those 3% of people is completely different from the mindset of 1% of people who continue to stutter into adulthood.

I saw Tiger Woods talk about his stuttering on a TV program. Obviously his stuttering had a big enough impact on him that it still affects him. That suggests that he didn't grow out of his stuttering during childhood but instead got it under control with hard work and determination. I'll find out for sure in the future. You're also wrong about King George VI. Yes he continued to stutter until his death. It's not surprising since speech therapy can't cure stuttering and was never a cure. The important thing that you missed is that as an adult thanks to speech therapy he managed to overcome his severe stuttering. In one of my posts I provided a link to one of his famous speeches. I recommend for you to listen to it. In this speech he only had one or two slight blocks or repetitions. They were barely noticeable. If his severe stuttering wasn't under control thanks to speech therapy he would have a strong block or a repetition on almost every word and his speech would have been a lot more slower. But that didn't happen since his stuttering was completely under control. The same thing happened in his regular adult life when he talked with people. This continued until when he was old and got sick. Because of this he lost strength to continue to practice using his rules. That's why shortly before he died his severe stuttering returned and he had at least a partial relapse. I was also very much surprised when you actually "cled" that Joe Biden out grew his stuttering when he was a teenager. This cl of yours surprised me because it's common knowledge that he has chronic adult stuttering. Joe Biden himself talks about his stuttering and is involved in helping people who stutter. He even has connections to American Institute for Stuttering and went to their gala. When I was there Catherine told all of us that he stutters and that he will be the first vice president with adult developmental stuttering. When Obama just picked him and they had their first rally together, Obama when introducing Joe Biden told everyone that he stutters. Also only children grow out of stuttering naturally and it's impossible for teenagers to grow out of stuttering naturally or even with speech therapy. That's why Joe Biden belongs to the 1% group of people as do I and you who continue to stutter into adulthood and who have chronic stuttering. Because of all this irrefutable proof don't try to put Joe Biden again into a 3% group of people who outgrow their stuttering during childhood and not teenage hood. Because of all this Joe Biden is one of the best examples of what speech therapy and a lot of hard work can do to stuttering in terms of getting it completely under control. Other examples are the stories of British Prime Minister of United Kingdom Winston Churchill, Wendell Johnson and Charles Van Riper. Read about them to find out how they managed to get their stuttering completely under control. For example, Winston Churchill used to research all events that happened in the world much more than any other politicians in order to be better prepared than them and not to be caught off guard. When Winston Churchill knew a topic very well, he found that he could control his stuttering completely. Winston Churchill also used to practice his speeches before giving them in order to be 100% fluent when giving speeches in front of crowds of people. It's just like Joe Biden because Joe Biden doesn't stutter when talking in public. Despite all of this, I think Joe Biden still might stutter rarely in private life just like Winston Churchill did once in a while in his private life. Another good story is about Charles Van Riper. Charles Van Riper at one time couldn't teach his classes at the university because his severe stuttering relapsed. He was forced to write on the board and not teach his classes by speaking. After one semester of this he quit. But this didn't stop him from coming back and getting his severe stuttering under control. That means he was able to get back to teaching university classes while being almost completely fluent. Because of all this don't forget that just because they continued to stutter very mildly after speech therapy, it doesn't mean that their stuttering wasn't completely under control. In fact it was completely the opposite.

You say, speaking about those who have overcome stuttering, "statistically speaking their number is just too huge to try to simply dismiss them or ignore them." Where is this evidence? I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but you aren't backing up your cls other then by telling us this is what your speech therapist told you.

I not only heard it from my very experienced speech therapist and read about it, I've also seen it with my own eyes and experienced it myself for many years. I’ve met a lot of people that were treated by my speech therapist and they spoke completely fluently. I’ve seen firsthand with my own eyes what speech therapy, determination and hard work can do to stuttering in terms of getting stuttering completely under control no matter how severe it is (the phrase "getting stuttering completely under control" doesn't mean having 0 blocks or speaking 100% fluently in all situations everywhere all the time for the rest of the life). For example I once saw a person with very severe natural stuttering who was treated by my speech therapist speak 100% fluently without any blocks in front of a speech class just because he was using the rules that he learned. Does it mean that that person will be 100% fluent every time he gives a speech to a class? Of course not because speech therapy isn't a cure. That person will still probably stutter once in a while like maybe have a few blocks per month because he has very severe stuttering. Even with a few small blocks per month, it will still mean that he got his very severe stuttering completely under control thanks to speech therapy. In addition to him I also saw many other people become completely or almost completely fluent that were also treated by my speech therapist. If you don’t believe me then read about the life stories of Charles Van Riper and Wendell Johnson. They both had severe stuttering and started the speech therapy field decades ago. Both of them succeeded in controlling their natural severe stuttering to such a degree that it was mild to nonexistent by using the speech rules/techniques they invented and tested first on themselves. Both of them even were able to talk completely fluently for weeks at a time. There are countless other examples in which people got their stuttering completely under control. This includes famous and many other non famous people. There are so many of them that you can't simply statistically dismiss them or call them anomalies. You just have to accept them for what they are and where they point you to. That is that speech therapy works and can make most people who stutter very fluent in all situations no matter how severe their stuttering is and at the same time help them to overcome all of their negative feelings.

I have known hundreds of stutterers through my involvement in the stuttering and I can't think of anyone who is completely stutter free after many different types of therapies. There may be some, but I really don't believe it is more then a tiny percentage.

Again speech therapy isn't a cure for stuttering. It can't make a person 100% fluent virtually all the time in all situations for the rest of his life. That's why you didn't meet anyone like that after interacting with hundreds of people who stutter. I'm sure you met many of them who completely got their stuttering under control with the help from speech therapy to such a level that they are completely fluent most of the time. In other words they continue to have blocks so rarely that it just happens a few times a month or even a year. Even when that happens the blocks are often so small that a person who stutters is the only one who notices them and not their listener or a group of listeners.

I am not trying to sound harsh, it is just that your experience seems so vastly different from mine. I am also not saying speech therapy is a waste of time. A good speech therapist can certainly be helpful. But I do think, with some exceptions, that modern stuttering therapy is in sad shape.

Sure. Our experiences with speech therapy are different. Yet at the same time they are very similar. For some reason throughout this friendly and fun debate we misunderstood each other. I was never defending a false cl that speech therapy is a cure and can prevent stuttering all the time in all situations. And you seemed to think that I was doing just that. I just was trying to show you that with speech therapy and stuttering modification it's possible for anyone to get stuttering completely under control along with all of its negative feelings while continuing to stutter very mildly like a couple of times every month or several years. That means most of the time with a lot of hard work and determination it's possible for a person who stutters to be completely fluent in all situations. That is not all the time but most of the time since speech therapy isn't a cure. :)

[TenaciousD]

Were you at a Washington D.C. course? I think I attended in spring of 07.

Yah I attended the Washington DC course......... Are you a guy or a chick? lol......sorry but the name Adrian could go either way:) .........anyways I remember a girl there ( and I think her name might of been Adrian ) maybe it was you...................anyways she worked as a Nursing assistant or somethan like that............ Adrian do you have a picture?

[Silent]

Thanks, agantx, for your positive posts re speech therapy. I myself believe in speech therapy, coupled with working on negative emotions, as the best bet given the current state of knowledge.

However, here is a small piece of advice and please don't take it personally...
I don't see why you have to repeat your points like 10 times in one post. It won't make them any more valid; instead, it will make your posts longer and thus less likely to be read by others...

[Adrian]

Yah I attended the Washington DC course......... Are you a guy or a chick? lol......sorry but the name Adrian could go either way:) .........anyways I remember a girl there ( and I think her name might of been Adrian ) maybe it was you...................anyways she worked as a Nursing assistant or somethan like that............ Adrian do you have a picture?

I am a guy, lol. I attended in March, you must have attended in June. I looked over Loren's photos online and was not sure which one was you. Was your head shaved back then?

[agantx]

I am also not saying speech therapy is a waste of time. A good speech therapist can certainly be helpful. But I do think, with some exceptions, that modern stuttering therapy is in sad shape.

I agree that speech therapy certainly isn't a waste of time because it works and helps a lot of people get free from stuttering. :)

I liked the article that you posted titled "The Death of Fluency Disorders" that was published in 2001. I think everyone should read it. On the day that I read it I sent it to my very experienced speech therapist. After reading it, she said we shouldn't worry about it because the state of speech pathology field is better in many ways than it was when that article was published in 2001. She mentioned that majority of universities and colleges still have classes and programs about stuttering and that it'll be always like that. But despite all of this, my speech therapist and I agree with you that modern speech therapy is in a sad shape right now with some exceptions. That's because many speech therapists today focus too much on negative feelings and not on making people more fluent. They say that those speech therapists that still continue to focus on fluency are giving "false" hopes to people who stutter. They also say that stuttering "can't" be changed and made a lot better with a lot of determination and hard work. Because of these false beliefs, they urge people who stutter just to accept who they are and stop trying to become more fluent. In other words they became more like psychologists and not speech therapists.

It wasn't always like this. In the beginning starting with Charles Van Riper and Wendell Johnson, most speech therapists believed from experience and the results they were getting that stuttering could be made a lot better and that people who stutter can become 100% fluent most of the time with a lot of hard work. But now these same speech therapists are getting too old and are either retiring or dying. As I speak they are being slowly replaced by a new breed of speech therapists that have a totally different and pessimistic view of stuttering and whether it can be brought under control with a lot of hard work. That's very unfortunate because speech therapists should give hope to their clients instead of telling them that they will never be able to control their stuttering for the rest of their lives and that they should accept it, live with it and try to cope with it as best as they can. Of course when this happens, a person who stutters isn't willing to work as hard on his speech and is likely to fail in getting his stuttering under control since his hope was completely destroyed by his pessimistic speech therapist. When we look at speech therapy as a whole, this obviously lowers the success rate of speech therapy and negatively influences the minds of many people not to mention people who stutter. That's one of the reasons why you along with many other people who stutter lost faith in speech therapists, speech therapy in general or at least its effectiveness. All of this does great harm because more and more people who stutter fail to get their stuttering under control because they don't work as hard as they should since they don't have any hope in getting stuttering under control and continue to suffer from its effects like negative feelings.

My hope is that somehow very soon all of this pessimism that comes from too many speech therapists these days will finally stop. In this way once again they will give hope that stuttering can be completely brought under control with a lot of hard work to millions of people who stutter as they did from the very beginning of the speech pathology field. That's why currently at present time modern speech therapy is in a very sad and poor shape... :(

[agantx]

Agantx, notwithstanding our spirited discussion, I don't think our veiws are that far apart.

I agree that for the most part, our views about speech therapy in general are similar. I'm glad that we are having this friendly spirited discussion because it forces me to think and learn new things. Thanks for starting it! ;)

I firmly believe stutterers can greatly improve their speech and learn to live happy normal lives. We only seem to differ slightly in the effectiveness of traditional therapy and the importance of fluency as a goal. Letting go of my goal of fluency has been one the most important steps in my life.

I too believe that for the most part people who stutter can greatly improve their stuttering to such a degree with a lot of work that they will only have a few very easy blocks each week, month or year. This is even possible with severe stutterers if they will work long and hard enough on their speech. I believe all of this because I've seen it with my own eyes, read about it many times and experienced it myself. If you too believe this is possible with a good speech therapist who knows what he's doing and done it many times before, then I'm happy to say that we don't have any differences on the effectiveness of speech therapy. :)

You're right. People who stutter should never shoot for 100% fluency all the time or make it their goal even when they have mild or very mild stuttering. This is because it's currently impossible even with speech therapy because we don't have a cure yet for stuttering. That's why this "goal" is completely irrelevant and at the same time isn't important at all and can only cause harm to a person who stutters. Like you I too sadly made the same mistake years ago...

[agantx]

Thanks, agantx, for your positive posts re speech therapy. I myself believe in speech therapy, coupled with working on negative emotions, as the best bet given the current state of knowledge.

Hi Silent. It's great to meet another person who still has strong faith in speech therapy. In today's world sadly, too many people who stutter and many of the speech therapists themselves that treat them have lost faith that stuttering can be completely brought under control with a lot of determination, persistence and hard work... :(

However, here is a small piece of advice and please don't take it personally...
I don't see why you have to repeat your points like 10 times in one post. It won't make them any more valid; instead, it will make your posts longer and thus less likely to be read by others...

Thanks for the friendly advice. I guess I was very passionate and energized when writing these posts. That's why most of them turned out to be very long and why I sometimes repeated my point... :D

[TenaciousD]

I am a guy, lol. I attended in March, you must have attended in June. I looked over Loren's photos online and was not sure which one was you. Was your head shaved back then?

I attended in March as well..........yo I had a shaved head like I do now........:) ........this is weird.....how can we not remember each other....especially since..................OMG!!!!!!!!! I just realized while typing that it was march of 2008 not 2007:eek: ............I feel really dumb right now:D lol

[grantM]

I have seen great success stories through speech therapy and also without. We are all individuals who did not fit one set recovery mould. I have also met stutterers who stutter severely and choose not to have any help at all and are happy productive people.

[Adrian]

I just realized while typing that it was march of 2008 not 2007:

That would expain why we don't remember each other, lol.

[Count]

Sigmund Freud's work and his ideas are outdated.

The facts that fears and wishes are hidden in our dreams and that we have a subconsciousness are not outdated ideas at all. All these discoveries were made by Sigmund Freud. Also a fact that Freud revealed is that free association of thoughts and speaking them out in a therapy session will release the mind and eventually lead to mental healing. Today psychologists and psychoanalysts do the same.
Looking at it from this point of view the work of Sigmund Freud is actually pretty cutting-edge. :)

[DKoz]

In my experience, you have to find the right one. I had to go through three speech therapist before I found the right one. It's a much further drive, but I think of it as a investment. The group speech therapy is better than the one on one...

[DKoz]

In my experience, you have to find the right one. I had to go through three speech therapist before I found something that worked. It's a much further drive, but I think of it as a investment. When it comes to speech therapy, you must pay attention to the therapist and practice as much as you can. I even record myself whenever I practice and play it back to my therapist so she can give me her opinion.

[DKoz]

In my experience, you have to find the right one. I had to go through three speech therapist before I found the right one. It's a much further drive, but I think of it as a investment. The group speech therapy is better than the one on one...

Nevermine this post, ooops!