Introverted

[GoodGuy]

Are ALL PWS introverted? Are we all shy, nervous and socially inadequate around people? I know for sure that there must be at least one people here who is outrageous and extroverted.

[grantM]

I think you would be quite surprised at how many extroverted stutterers there are out there and also how many shameless ones there are. Some may be extroverted in some situations but not in all apsects of life. Look at forums for example. Normally quiet and shy people turn into ravenous lions on a chat forum lol yet meet them face to face and they are so timid and shy

[BenLZ]

There are extroverts. They just frequently come off as mentally retarded.

[grantM]

There are extroverts. They just frequently come off as mentally retarded.

Gee BenLZ you seem really negative at the moment. The extrovert stutterers I have met have plenty of personality, intelligence and success in life

[Rkanjl]

The extrovert stutterers I have met have plenty of personality, intelligence and success in life

Same here (granted, that's only a sample of 3 :p )...

[BenLZ]

Gee BenLZ you seem really negative at the moment. The extrovert stutterers I have met have plenty of personality, intelligence and success in life

With a severe stutter, you can't just say everything that's on your mind when ever you want. I was in a speech class with someone who was very talkative and just plowed through words - and while he certainly had personality, I can't say he had much of the other two. With a mild stutter you can get by, but success in life with a real stutter is very difficult.

[emily445455]

There are extroverts. They just frequently come off as mentally retarded.

:confused: Not the ones I know.....

Anways, I am an introvert personally. I am getting better, but I am still pretty shy around people I don't know too well. There are many people at my support group who are extroverts though...they are all men and older...I think it come with age.

[DKoz]

In social situations I can sometimes be pretty chatty. I have even been known to throw the one-liners out there if the situation comes up. When it comes to this forum, I may post a comment once every 3 days or so.

[Thomkatt]

My personal favorite it people who never seem to shut up and think their opinionated when what they really are is disrespectful and rude.

[Keyo]

With a severe stutter, you can't just say everything that's on your mind when ever you want. I was in a speech class with someone who was very talkative and just plowed through words - and while he certainly had personality, I can't say he had much of the other two. With a mild stutter you can get by, but success in life with a real stutter is very difficult.

It's not on how much you talk in a convsersation... its by how strong is your speech and effective even if it was just a couple of words...
there are too many talkative people out there who can talk for 30 mins non stop and all what u get from their speech is a couple of words...

we stutterers are known as very good listeners almost everyone of us... and that gives us the chance to be more determined on what are we gonna say... and not just say anything just to get some attention...

[Mullen]

A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval. There is nothing more satisfying than that sense of being completely "at home" in your own skin. When you achieve that as a natural state of "being", then you can finally look beyond yourself and fully contribute all your talents to the world. -- Mark Twain

[grantM]

but success in life with a real stutter is very difficult.

What is a real stutter? We have covered the issue of severity quite often here. It is so hard to gauge. Do we judge it on speech alone and/or quality of life? What is severe to one is mild to another, what is mild to one could be severe to another. I think we all have to expand our stuttering social lives and meet more stutterers to see what can truley be acvieved. I don't think success is all that hard if you are focused on your goals. You just have to work a little harder perhaps in some areas, but not all

[BenLZ]

You know a real stutter when you hear one. There are ways of measuring the severity of a stutter (words per a minute) and there actually are methods to gauge it. A stutter would be judged based on speech, why would quality of life be taken into account? I have met quite a few stutterers, whether it was through speech therapy or support groups. I don't believe in therapy, and I think many stutterers just see it as a way of mental appeat ('Alright, I'm going to therapy, I'm on the right road!') but stuttering is so neurological and adults who stutter almost always remain stutterers. There's fluency shaping, and then there's mental shaping in some of these speech therapy/support groups. Too often this 'mental shaping' is just asking stutterers to accept sub-par lives. You just can't win.

[Jaykon]

we stutterers are known as very good listeners almost everyone of us... and that gives us the chance to be more determined on what are we gonna say... and not just say anything just to get some attention...

agree with you 100%

[drederick]

With a severe stutter, you can't just say everything that's on your mind when ever you want.

Of course you can. It will probably take longer than normal and it may involve a lot of struggle, but the only thing stopping you is your own fear and judgment of yourself. Sure, other people might think you look/sound retarded, but if you're self confident you don't let it affect you.

[drederick]

success in life with a real stutter is very difficult.

I'm a rather severe stutterer and my life is pretty sweet, and it doesn't seem that hard to me.

About my stuttering: I usually have some sort of block on about every 3rd word. They usually last a second or two. My rate of speech averages to about one word per second (I've recorded myself making calls). Sometimes my blocks can extent to about 10 seconds. I do a lot of weird gasping and repititions during my blocks and come off as fairly nervous to the untrained eye. In the past my blocks have been so bad that I'd sometimes cut my bottom lip with my teeth and the listener could start to see my lip starting to bleed when speaking to me. My manager's manager at one point tried to avoid talking to me because he didn't want me to hurt myself. Once when talking to an ex girlfriend after I had broken up with her but was trying to convince her that we should get back together I was blocking so badly that my rate of speech was about 5 words per minute (we ended up getting back together).

About my life: well paying job which is extremely enjoyable. Dating is a fun for me and I'm pretty decent at it. To elaborate: over the span of one month back in January when I decided that I wanted to get back into dating. I went on dates with 8 different (good looking) girls. Three of them were not interested in me for whatever reason. Might have been my stutter, might have been something else. One of them was very into me at first but I was mean to her so she ended things. I am pretty sure I could have turned any of the other 4 into my girlfriend (one of them -- my favorite among them -- is my current girlfriend). Every girl that I've ever casually dated (the sample size is around 15) has wanted to be my girlfriend, despite my often-severe stutter. I have a handful of good friends, roughly as many as I want (I'm very busy w/ work so after spending time w/ my gf and with myself, there's not that much time left for more friendships), I go to parties, etc.

What aspect of my life am I supposed to be so sad about?

Maybe a few nights ago when I was at the grocery store and one of the employees asked my gf "what is he saying?" when I started stuttering I should have broken into tears and cursed my life?

Maybe because at least one of the girls that I went on a date with recently probably didn't like me due to my stutter I should now break up with my girlfriend and hide in my room because obviously girls don't find stuttering attractive?

Maybe because some people at work have chuckled a bit when first meeting me and seeing my stutter, and sometimes people look away when I stutter, I should assume that the working world is no place for a stutterer, and quit my job?

[grantM]

You know a real stutter when you hear one. There are ways of measuring the severity of a stutter (words per a minute) and there actually are methods to gauge it. A stutter would be judged based on speech, why would quality of life be taken into account? I have met quite a few stutterers, whether it was through speech therapy or support groups. I don't believe in therapy, and I think many stutterers just see it as a way of mental appeat ('Alright, I'm going to therapy, I'm on the right road!') but stuttering is so neurological and adults who stutter almost always remain stutterers. There's fluency shaping, and then there's mental shaping in some of these speech therapy/support groups. Too often this 'mental shaping' is just asking stutterers to accept sub-par lives. You just can't win.

Wow you are feeling down at the moment. There are heaps of used measurements :words per minute, syllables stuttered per minute, to name a few. But quality of life has to factor because impact on life also factors into overall severity. I have met many stutterers myself. Some who have very minor stutters from your measurements but their stutter has greatly affected their lives. Some who have very severe stutters from your measurements but it has not greatly affected their lives. To judge it purely in speech is a simplified outlook. Surely the whole person should be taken into account? The same for any form of therapy or recovery program. For these pure speech should only be a part of their program. Programs which treat the speech only are the ones that usually fail.

My story for example and I honestly am not bragging in any way. I have a severe stutter rated at 33% syllables stuttered per minute if rated on a numeric scale at its worst. That is I block on 1 in 3 syllables spoken. I have severe blocks at times and very visual facial contortions. Yet I am married to a beautiful wife, am a black belt in Taekwondo, work as a university lecturer, have directed and acted in internationally shown short films, present at national academic conferences and last year I won my university's lecturer of the year. My life is not sub-par by any means. I have met many other stutterers who are going great guns in their chosen fields including medicine, business, law, trades, housewifery, home dadery and education. They are making the best with what they have.

Fluency shaping is great and works well for many people. For some it gives a great confidence boost and for others that and a totally new way of speaking. How are their lives sub-par? Anything that helps is great. Yes most adults remain stutterers but that is why you have to stop the "poor me, no one understands, it is so unfair, i will hold out for a cure" attitudes and live the life you have to the fullest.

[GoodGuy]

When I'm out with my friends, I'm very social. Everyone in my year knows me and sees me as the funny and outrageous guy. However, I'm in an all boys' school, so anything relating to the opposite just makes me go ???.

Ever since I entered secondary school, I haven't had any close contact to any girls, except my sister, and I've completely forgotten how the hell to speak to them.

If a situation comes where I have to speak to a girl, and I have to introduce myself, I will fail miserably. Especially if I know all of this beforehand and already started foreseeing the worst case scenarios. However, after the whole nervousness thing has gone, and we've started talking to a while, I guess I'd speak quite fine, with a 70-80% chance of not stumbling over words.

I HATE THE FACT THAT I HAVE TROUBLE SAYING MY OWN DAMN NAME. The first day of school where you have to introduce yourself to your class, I was always the one people were looking at, and I could see what they were thinking. "Pfft, this guy has special needs..". I was basically blocking the first sound of my name, which begins with a B, and I was forcing it out. Everyone had to wait for me, and I know the teacher was on his heels just wondering "Is he gonna say it? Yes? No? Maybe So?". To this day, I still get people talking about what happened on that day, and I'd just roll my eyes and laugh everything off. They were like "Everyone thought you were a retard!" "You looked stupid" etc etc. They said thought because right now I'm quite adept in most subjects, so yeah. Anyways, I know that this problem is shared by every PWS, but are we ALL doomed to have this? This particular issue?

[emily445455]

Good guy, the first day of school used to TERRIFY me!!! They even do that stupid stuff in college sometimes!! It sucked!

I still sometimes dread going to new places and meeting new people, just because I have to say my name.

[drederick]

They were like "Everyone thought you were a retard!" "You looked stupid" etc etc. They said thought because right now I'm quite adept in most subjects, so yeah. Anyways, I know that this problem is shared by every PWS, but are we ALL doomed to have this? This particular issue?

If it will be their first impression of you and you know for sure you'll block hard, it sounds like a perfect place to advertise. Instead of just launching into a struggle while no one knows what's happening and everything thinks you're retarded, you could say:

"By the way I stutter and the first sound of my name is especially difficult so you may have to be patient.." then try to say your name.

Anyway, it sounds like people at your school don't really care about that now that they've gotten to know you, so while it was unpleasant at the time it doesn't sound like a huge deal.

[drederick]

Wow you(BenLZ) are feeling down at the moment.

It sounds like Ben associates "accepting your stuttering" with the unrealistic positivity or self delusion that you often see from people who are really into "acceptance."

In my experience, people who are hung up on their stuttering often go way too far in the other direction and talk about how their stuttering is a "gift" and such, so I understand why he has a negative view of the "acceptance" movement.

BenLZ, a good example of true acceptance is Jack Welch. There's a recent interview with him at stuttertalk which I recommend you listen to.

The hosts of stuttertalk go way overboard with self-acceptance. They cl that you couldn't pay them to give up their stuttering because they love it so much. It's interesting to see what happens when they encounter someone who truly accepts his stuttering (Jack Welch).

The basic gist of the interview is:

Hosts: "Jack, tell us how your stuttering has shaped you as a person."
Jack: "I don't really think about it."
Hosts: "There's this one stuttering stockbroker guy I know who <some story of avoidance and being preoccupied with stuttering>"
Jack: "Sounds lame to me. That guy needs to man up and stop being a wimp."
Hosts: "Did having a stuttering make you feel like you had to prove something to the world, and is that why you're so successful?"
Jack: "No, it's not a big deal. You guys need to get lives. Stop talking about stuttering all the time."
Hosts: "Do you view your stuttering as a gift?"
Jack: No, it's just a part of me, like being bald."
Hosts: "Do you ever use voluntary stuttering?"
Jack: "No. If we weren't doing this show right now I wouldn't spend a second thinking about it. Listen, all this obsession with stuttering is stupid. I'm going to go do something productive."

(not actual quotes -- just a dramatization of the general attitude).

The point is, you don't need to be one of those "kumbaya, stuttering is great" types to accept your stuttering. IMO true acceptance looks much more like Jack's attitude.

[grantM]

I guess for my own situation I can some it up simply:

I do not wake up every morning being a stutterer.

I wake up being Grant who has a career, a family, hobbies, interests friends etc. I just happen to stutter also. Stuttering of course has had an effect on my overall life. I continue to try to understand it and battle with fluency techniques, but it is such a small part of who I am. It is part of my persona but it has not made me the person that I am.

[WhiteLatinoBoy]

i am super shy and awkward. i suck at conversations in general and it may not even be because of stuttering. lol and i just think its amazing how people feel that oh stuttering is just apart of me and i dont worry about it or think anything of it. i mean i want to feel like that but i just cant. i mean tahts great u guys feel like that but come on, this sucks! haha. i suppose im too weak and let it take over me but thats just the way it is for me. its effected me so much and i just see it hard to break out of this and feel comfortable speaking, ever

[BenLZ]

Wow you are feeling down at the moment. There are heaps of used measurements :words per minute, syllables stuttered per minute, to name a few. But quality of life has to factor because impact on life also factors into overall severity. I have met many stutterers myself. Some who have very minor stutters from your measurements but their stutter has greatly affected their lives. Some who have very severe stutters from your measurements but it has not greatly affected their lives. To judge it purely in speech is a simplified outlook. Surely the whole person should be taken into account? The same for any form of therapy or recovery program. For these pure speech should only be a part of their program. Programs which treat the speech only are the ones that usually fail.

My story for example and I honestly am not bragging in any way. I have a severe stutter rated at 33% syllables stuttered per minute if rated on a numeric scale at its worst. That is I block on 1 in 3 syllables spoken. I have severe blocks at times and very visual facial contortions. Yet I am married to a beautiful wife, am a black belt in Taekwondo, work as a university lecturer, have directed and acted in internationally shown short films, present at national academic conferences and last year I won my university's lecturer of the year. My life is not sub-par by any means. I have met many other stutterers who are going great guns in their chosen fields including medicine, business, law, trades, housewifery, home dadery and education. They are making the best with what they have.

Fluency shaping is great and works well for many people. For some it gives a great confidence boost and for others that and a totally new way of speaking. How are their lives sub-par? Anything that helps is great. Yes most adults remain stutterers but that is why you have to stop the "poor me, no one understands, it is so unfair, i will hold out for a cure" attitudes and live the life you have to the fullest.

I'm actually not feeling down at the moment (or when I wrote this). The typical measure is words per minute, and I still don't see why you'd measure quality of life. Yes, your quality of life may factor into overall severity - but we're measuring severity of speech. Stuttering is a speech disorder, therefore we should measure speech output. Just because something may factor in in some way does not mean it needs to be measured. It's not a simplified way of measuring it by doing wpm, look at the definition of a stutter.

1 : to speak with involuntary disruption or blocking of speech (as by spasmodic repetition or prolongation of vocal sounds)

By "severity" we mean severity of stutter. You've completely expanded the definition.

Can I ask you something, Grant? How do you flirt with a severe stutter? What do you think of those awkward silences where people give you those looks when you're in a block? Have you ever considered that it might be a burden for some to talk to you? How about the idea that many people probably feel bad for stutterers and thank God that they weren't stricken with that? How do you do in verbal feuds when people start poking fun at you (this is nothing particular towards you, but males naturally struggle for higher status)? Is there ever any sense of impotency?

Fluency shaping is great and works well for many people. For some it gives a great confidence boost and for others that and a totally new way of speaking. How are their lives sub-par? Anything that helps is great. Yes most adults remain stutterers but that is why you have to stop the "poor me, no one understands, it is so unfair, i will hold out for a cure" attitudes and live the life you have to the fullest.

Oh please, you've never held back a thought because you couldn't say it? On the flip side, has a thought ever taken you like 2 minutes to say and you completely regretted stopping the conversation for everyone to wait for you? Stuttering makes lives sub par because people need to express themselves. When fluency shaping wears off it can be devastating to adult stutterers who blame it on themselves.

The reason why we can't stop with these attitudes is because we feel stuttering isn't for us. We can't accept it. We feel like a lesser human being because we have it, and for years we've been denied the gift of expressing ourselves. that's why you have a sizable proportion of unsatisfied stutterers.

[grantM]

Yes BenLZ, soem measure stuttering severity in a pure scientific sense but I prefer to look at the whole person. To quote myself "Some who have very minor stutters from your measurements but their stutter has greatly affected their lives. Some who have very severe stutters from your measurements but it has not greatly affected their lives." I think it is very simplified and clinical to take a pure speech measurement approach. You must treat the whole person.

How do you flirt with a severe stutter? Hmm in my case quite easily. Once a person look spast the stutter (usually fairly quickly) then they start to look at you the person. Yes I agree it is a burden for some people to talk to you. But they are a very small sample of the general population. Some people feel bad for stutterers but also amputees, alcholics, cancer victims, the neighbour with an ingrown toenail, etc, etc, etc. You are not unique because of your stutter. Most stutterers have over blown impressions of what people are thinking about them when they speak. I have verbal feuds, I attend meetings, sit on an ethics committee and do heaps of things. I was also lucky enough to be never teased to my face at school. Of course it is hard and I have some days where I struggle but they are small hurdles. I fear deadlines much more.


On your second major point. Yes I have held back at times because I could not say it. But that is not always due to the stutter. Yes some thoughts have taken 2 minutes plus to say. I sometimes get stuck on a word for over a minute during a presentation. But I do not regret it. When I was younger and full of angst against the world then maybe so. Stuttering is what you make of it and in general I doubt many stutterers have sub-par lives. Or at least the ones I have met. All face challenges but seem to have great lives in general. When fluency shaping wears off (well I debate if it does, basically you focus less on the techniques you have learnt) then it can be devastating and a true wake up call that any form of recovery will be hard. You have to maintain a lot of focus for a long time. Fact. The treatment program MUST address more than just your speech to be successful.

I do not preach acceptance. I preach making the most of your life with what you have. I continue to work on my speech off and on. If you complain though that the general public does not understand you then do something about it...simple. Become a role model and make the public aware. Do not hold out for a "cure" that will probably not be found in your lifetime. You have not been denied the gift to express yourself, you are denying yourself. You are expressing yourself fine now online. Look at other avenues. You have a sizable proportion of unsatified stutterers because they are holding out for a quick fix and are getting frustrated at it not emerging. Get out there and circulate and take some focus off your speech. You will be amazed at what is out there, what you can do and what people truly think.

[cjm555]

am I a shy person... yes in some ways. am i always a shy,quiet person? not even close. if i am in the right situation i am making jokes, laughing, and having conversations with people i know and dont know.

[GoodGuy]

It's so easy to diverge yourself into the depths of cynicism. It's incredibly easily to become pessimistic about things like this. For most people, they're going to have the face the facts that they're speech impediment is going to negatively affect their social life. Everyday, as I'm walking to school, I just have a chat to myself (I'm not mad or anything, I just like speaking my thoughts aloud) and I come to terms with the harsh reality people like us live in. Getting careers, finding significant others seems so far away, almost like a dream actually. But, then when I'm actually in school, and I'm hanging around with friends, I forget about everything and just have fun.

So basically, the only thing that's stopping you from becoming the person you want to be is not your stutter, it's yourself. It's the way you perceive life. Yes, we all have a natural predisposition to feel like total outcasts and lepers in society, but the one that's causing it is us. Ourselves. We are the tormentors, not our stutter.

Change your state of mind. Change your outlook in life, and you just may realize that life isn't so grey after all.

HOWEVER. I may say all of this, but in the end I'm always going to feel like crap afterwards, so call me a hypocrite. I guess I'm stubborn about this, not really wanting to accept this kind of truth, when all I've known is the hard and confidence-shattering ones.

[grantM]

You will do fine in life GoodGuy, just believe that you can :)

[GoodGuy]

I know I have the power to do fine in life, it's just getting past the fact that accepting myself seems almost impossible.